Jedi hi-tech halyards v2

[UNCIVILIZED]

On the RM thing, I hadn't looked at all the numbers, & thus not done any calc's comparing the two boats. But rather was basing it on size, & since RM generally increases with same... I assumed. Perhaps in error??? Though, as I said, one needs to design the rigging around the scenario that just one of the boomed sails plus a jib, will at some time or another be enough sail area to cause a knockdown. So the running (& standing) rigging needs to be designed with this in mind. Even if the normal loads are but a fraction there of. And that's likely a big part of why the previous 10mm Vectran halyards lasted so long. Meaning that for 95%+ of the conditions encountered they were greatly oversized.

In reality though, you both have the same amount of ballast in the keel, & the same draft (6', as his is a shoal draft Sundeer 64'). But I believe that he has water ballast? And if so, that adds an extra 25% to the RM30 on top of the RM from the keel. And then there's the fact that the Dashew's design their boats with as much of the heavy stuff below the WL as possible. Which isn't the case with most other designs. Ergo, all of the above adds up to a stiff RM. Including a hull design optimized for same, as his canoe body is huge as compared to a Moody 54', given it's extreme WL length, & form design.

Edit: Aren't the keels on Sundeer 64's semi-bulbed? If so that's another contributor to having an even greater than average RM. Meaning contributing probably yet another 15-20% more to her RM than the keel on a Moody.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by sea-bee

I am so envious of the beautiful work that is being shown on these threads lately. I have bought a set of fids and have spent hours trying to follow the instructions for a simple eye splice but just simply can not get a big enough fid down the cover to be able to feed the core through. I have tried it with 6, 8 and 10mm braided rope, and have the same problem with all of these. Any suggestions about how to get started?

Hi Sea-bee
You can overcome the issue of the fid being too short to bury the core (Selma type fids and tubular fids will tend to be) by exiting the fid as far as you can go in the eye section of the cover. Don't wait until you are burying the core below the base of the eye as the extra bulk there will make this difficult. Then simply poke the fid in through the same point in the cover where you exited and keep going. The core stays in the fid throughout the procedure.

SWL

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Unciv -- what's your opinion on single vs double braid, for halyards? Do you think I'm being paranoid about using single braid, on cruising boats?

Single braid of course has a lot of advantages -- lighter, smaller, and cheaper (for a given strength), easier to splice. I use it all over my boat, but I replace it often because it dries out, frazzles, and starts to look scary, after about two years in the sun, in my experience.

For the most part, other than on race only boats, I prefer to have covers on single braids. At least the bits which run over sheaves, get winched or put in clutches, etc. Though often it's more economical to buy the cores & covers seperately, & DIY your own "double braid". Especially if you want to go all out & put purpose built, high tech anti-chafe covers on some sections of the line. Like Flavored Ice, Spectra anti-chafe sleeve, etc.

As an example, when I find 12-strand Spectra on sale, I'll snag at least halff a spool, if not a full one. Whether I need it at the time or not. Like the 10mm that I got CHEAP last month. Knowing that even if I choose to buy a spool of Samson LST to use as cover, tossing out it'd polyester core, I can make "DIY Warpspeed" at a fraction of the cost.
I hesitate to even mention how cheaply I've gotten cordage (much of it this way) over the years. And it's not like Spectra goes bad sitting in the closet, plus it's literally a great investment if you find it on the cheap. When's the price of quality cordage not kept up with, or outpaced inflation?

When it comes to things like runners, synthetic stays & the like, covers are a pain, & really go against the idea of using cordage for such standing rigging bits. Though runners will likely get either a bit of cover, some Maxi Jacket II, or both, in the sections where they're at times within reach of the spreaders (chafe areas).

You can also add extra cover to most lines in high chafe areas, overtop of the covers which are already on them. And or, to reinforce areas of cover that are getting worn. Whether you use standard cover for this, or something more exotic.

And obviously, it's known that I'm a fan of Maxi Jacket II, RP25, & similar. Since it prevents a lot of abrasion, & UV wear. Including preventing lines from fuzzing up. Though a lot of the single braids can look truly terrible & still be in great shape structurally. As denoted by the cordage manufacturers themselves.
For example --> http://samsonrope.com/Documents/Rope...Manual_WEB.pdf

Keep in mind though too, that one of the perks of single braids is the ease of inspecting it. And thus being able to replace it prior to it's breaking. This was one of the key factors in it's replacing most metal shackles onboard in the last couple of decades. A trend that started on pro racing boats in the late 90's.


EDIT: One easy, & dirt cheap way to add many, many years to the life of your running rigging, halyards especially. Is to put a reeving splice in the tails of ALL off them. So that any time the boat will be sitting without use for more than a few days, you simply use pull the halyards out of the spar, & leave a purpose built 4-5mm Polyester leader cord in it's place.
This literally takes but 3 min per halyard, & costs you $0.10-15/ft for the leader line for each halyard.
Samson Solid Braid Nylon Rope

So if your boat's used but 35 days a year, why not save 90% on UV (& abrasion) wear by doing this. It's been the norm in many high end racing circles for decades. Plus, while the halyards are out of the boat like this, it's a great time to both inspect them, & to give them a good rinsing. Two other things which greatly prolong their lives.


PS: Dockhead, I'm curious what you're doing to your lines that they're wearing out in 2yrs? That's an incredibly short lifespan unless they're sized down to the utter minimum strength wise, for the job they're doing. Got any pics (with captions)?


For example, Brad Van Liew's Samson running rigging went around the world TWICE on his boat Balance Bar, in RTW solo races. This prior to him giving it to another, less well funded RTW competitor, where it saw plenty of miles after that. This, when his sponsors bought him some new cordage, for his participation in another RTW race.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Single braid of course has a lot of advantages -- lighter, smaller, and cheaper (for a given strength), easier to splice. I use it all over my boat, but I replace it often because it dries out, frazzles, and starts to look scary, after about two years in the sun, in my experience.

Hi Dockhead
Surprisingly, long term studies have shown that the deterioration in strength that occurs in dyneema core over time due to UV damage is not decreased significantly by the addition of the cover. Abrasion restistance is another matter.

SWL

[UNCIVILIZED]

Here's some info from Samson Ropes on; cover stripping, splicing, & lock stitching --> http://samsonrope.com/Documents/Spli..._Cover_WEB.pdf

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Just to set the record straight, I found the first reference to this was made by a member on Sailing Anarchy, well before Evans updated his Load Testing document.

Just one comment, the base of a thimble is not smooth. Abrasion may be an issue using a buried grip on a thimble. Or have you somehow modified the thimble?

SWL

I first saw this on Sailing Anarchy, posted by user EStar which is Evans... I later found a more detailed post that I can't find now. It was not on Evans website which seems down for a while now... which I find alarming?

The base of the Wichard integrated thimble is smooth. It is a one part polyurethane casting onto the shackle. There are some casting lines which are easily removed with an Exacto knife.

Below a picture of one of these after 11 years of service. The plastic seems heavily deteriorated by UV, but scratching very little off you get to solid fresh material just like the part that had been covered by the Vectran splice. We will clean these up and use them for the topping lifts with the 7/16" XLS

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by sea-bee

I am so envious of the beautiful work that is being shown on these threads lately. I have bought a set of fids and have spent hours trying to follow the instructions for a simple eye splice but just simply can not get a big enough fid down the cover to be able to feed the core through. I have tried it with 6, 8 and 10mm braided rope, and have the same problem with all of these. Any suggestions about how to get started?

I know what you mean and have been there when I started splicing double braid. It is all about the tools and some tricks.

I recommend you get the correctly sized D-splicer to assist you with that. Also, use the "soft fid" method, which is just a piece of outer cover. You pull that through first, then stick the core inside the soft fid, which grabs it and allows you to pull the core through.

Below a video showing this. The stainless steel doubled wire used is the D-splicer I mentioned. They show a very fancy soft fid with a piece of Dyneema attached but I only use a piece of cover just like they show here. They don't even use the Dyneema part in the video :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qsemu3bVHLU

[Smokeys Kitchen]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I first saw this on Sailing Anarchy, posted by user EStar which is Evans... I later found a more detailed post that I can't find now. It was not on Evans website which seems down for a while now... which I find alarming?

The base of the Wichard integrated thimble is smooth. It is a one part polyurethane casting onto the shackle. There are some casting lines which are easily removed with an Exacto knife.

Below a picture of one of these after 11 years of service. The plastic seems heavily deteriorated by UV, but scratching very little off you get to solid fresh material just like the part that had been covered by the Vectran splice. We will clean these up and use them for the topping lifts with the 7/16" XLS

Jedi - This site still appears to be up to me; just Googled Evans and it came up.

Beth & Evans

Is that the one you meant or does Evans have a different one as well? Note that it says "Beth and Evans" but the url is estarzinger.com

[s/v Jedi]

Q: Sizing for stretch instead of load?

A: Sure, if you need less stretch than what the line gives at 20% load then you can go to a bigger size. For me, the 0.7% stretch of Dyneema at 20% load is perfect. I hoist the main and pull the stretch out with the Cunningham. The question for me is if I can live with the creep, as my previous Vectran had no creep. But I'm sure it'll be okay for me: we're not racing, just cruising. Even if I have to tighten my Cunningham a bit more after a while; I like the excuse to trim the rig by that time

Q: Isn't a cover better for UV and chafing protection?

A: Not really. A polyester cover, like SWL already posted, offers very little UV protection: not worth the effort. The best UV protection is the Dyneema fibers themselves but even the outside fibers, while looking bleached, are still smooth and slippery feeling after 12 years.
Chafing isn't really an issue either. I have seen chafing tests where they rub tight Dyneema over a sharp stainless steel edge with a machine. Of-course some fibers are cut but by that time the sharp edhe has become smooth and damage stops. Dyneema is very chafing resistant in my experience.
I do add a cover where it is clamped in a rope clutch or goes around a winch but this is mostly because it is too thin or too slippery. My running backstays are 3/8" Amsteel Blue; were installed in 2004 and I am still not replacing them this year.

You should try thinner lines instead of the largest diameter that fits. Everything runs better with thinner line: much less friction, much smoother operation. Most sailors always try to go thinner

I do agree your loads are probably higher and I think a 3/8" Amsteel Blue is the right size for you. That becomes 1/2" with a cover added which is what you have. The table in the Samson guide stops at 50' but shows a 5/16" Amsteel Blue or 3/8" Amsteel for that 50' which indicates you need a size up for a 54' sloop

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Beautiful work!

I took a rather different approach when I did my halyards, however.

First of all, I sized them not to 20% of breaking load, but much bigger than that. Because the issue with halyards is not breaking strength, but STRETCH. Stretch of a given type of material is a mostly linear function of the % breaking strength, so double the breaking strength and you halve the stretch. So I sized mine according to the maximum size which would easily fit my gear and be reasonable to handle.

Secondly, I chose double braid, a racing grade with SK78 inside, 12mm. This makes the halyard bulkier and heavier, and a racer would surely strip the cover for the last part, but the cover protects from UV and chafing. I just didn't want bare uncovered dyneema going around blocks up at the masthead, around other gear, and running down through the mast where you can't see it easily. Plus, single braid frazzles in the sun -- that would just make me nervous.

My case is different as I have higher loads than Jedi -- single much taller mast, and carbon laminate sails, which are pickier about halyard stretch. YMMV depending on what your particular case demands of your halyards.

[Stumble]

Jedi,

Creep won't be an issue. For halyards you can actually figure it out, but realistically you will probably get around 1/300 - 1/400 of an inch a day of creep with Amsteel loaded to 20%. It's obviously nothing, but it isn't within the realm of real problems either.

What people have often mistaken as creep is constructional stretch, and this you will have to look out for. Whenever dyneema is unloaded it retracts a bit as the fibers slip past each other and relax. When you put the line back under load the fibers have to be re-oriented or locked into place. This requires that you pre-tension the line to get the fibers back in place. Just trim the halyard to where it looks good, then crank down on it a bit more. After 20 minutes or so retrim the halyard.

If you need to ease the halyard then you are done, if you need to crank it back in a bit then you didn't set the pre-tension high enough the first time and need to do it again, but harder. After doing this a couple of times you get to know the halyard and can almost always get it hard enough the first time.

This pre-tensioning should happen every time you raise the sail btw.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Smokeys Kitchen

Jedi - This site still appears to be up to me; just Googled Evans and it came up.

Beth & Evans

Is that the one you meant or does Evans have a different one as well? Note that it says "Beth and Evans" but the url is estarzinger.com

The site's addy has changed, it used to be www.bethandevans.com as opposed to the above link which is Beth & Evans
Glad to see that it's still up though! Lots, & lots of good info.

Here's an irony for you. Seth & Ellen Leonard's website, & they've circumnavigated as well. However, I don't think that they're related to the above Leonards. Could be wrong though. https://gonefloatabout.com/

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Q: Sizing for stretch instead of load?

A: Sure, if you need less stretch than what the line gives at 20% load then you can go to a bigger size. For me, the 0.7% stretch of Dyneema at 20% load is perfect. I hoist the main and pull the stretch out with the Cunningham. The question for me is if I can live with the creep, as my previous Vectran had no creep. But I'm sure it'll be okay for me: we're not racing, just cruising. Even if I have to tighten my Cunningham a bit more after a while; I like the excuse to trim the rig by that time

Q: Isn't a cover better for UV and chafing protection?

A: Not really. A polyester cover, like SWL already posted, offers very little UV protection: not worth the effort. The best UV protection is the Dyneema fibers themselves but even the outside fibers, while looking bleached, are still smooth and slippery feeling after 12 years.
Chafing isn't really an issue either. I have seen chafing tests where they rub tight Dyneema over a sharp stainless steel edge with a machine. Of-course some fibers are cut but by that time the sharp edhe has become smooth and damage stops. Dyneema is very chafing resistant in my experience.
I do add a cover where it is clamped in a rope clutch or goes around a winch but this is mostly because it is too thin or too slippery. My running backstays are 3/8" Amsteel Blue; were installed in 2004 and I am still not replacing them this year.

You should try thinner lines instead of the largest diameter that fits. Everything runs better with thinner line: much less friction, much smoother operation. Most sailors always try to go thinner

I do agree your loads are probably higher and I think a 3/8" Amsteel Blue is the right size for you. That becomes 1/2" with a cover added which is what you have. The table in the Samson guide stops at 50' but shows a 5/16" Amsteel Blue or 3/8" Amsteel for that 50' which indicates you need a size up for a 54' sloop

Good and interesting answers; thank you!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

On the RM thing, I hadn't looked at all the numbers, & thus not done any calc's comparing the two boats. But rather was basing it on size, & since RM generally increases with same... I assumed. Perhaps in error??? Though, as I said, one needs to design the rigging around the scenario that just one of the boomed sails plus a jib, will at some time or another be enough sail area to cause a knockdown. So the running (& standing) rigging needs to be designed with this in mind. Even if the normal loads are but a fraction there of. And that's likely a big part of why the previous 10mm Vectran halyards lasted so long. Meaning that for 95%+ of the conditions encountered they were greatly oversized.

In reality though, you both have the same amount of ballast in the keel, & the same draft (6', as his is a shoal draft Sundeer 64'). But I believe that he has water ballast? And if so, that adds an extra 25% to the RM30 on top of the RM from the keel. And then there's the fact that the Dashew's design their boats with as much of the heavy stuff below the WL as possible. Which isn't the case with most other designs. Ergo, all of the above adds up to a stiff RM. Including a hull design optimized for same, as his canoe body is huge as compared to a Moody 54', given it's extreme WL length, & form design.

Edit: Aren't the keels on Sundeer 64's semi-bulbed? If so that's another contributor to having an even greater than average RM. Meaning contributing probably yet another 15-20% more to her RM than the keel on a Moody.

You may be looking at specs for the German Hanse-built Moody; not the English Moody I have. I have one foot wider beam than the Sundeer, one ton more ballast, a foot greater draft, more than a ton more ballast, and a bulb keel vs. straight one (that's right, isn't it Nick?), all for a boat of the same displacement. Selden's RM calculator gives 153.5kNM of RM vs 126.6 for the Sundeer.

Considering the much lower rig, that should make the Sundeer stiffer than my boat, despite the usefully shallow draft and speed-inducing hull fineness. Really nice design. My next boat will be more like that, than what I have now.

[s/v Jedi]

From memory I think I have 7 ton lead ballast bolted to my keel. We are the only Sundeer with a small bulb but we are only 6'2" and the others a little more (not sure how much but let's say 4" more".

I have never really studied main halyard tension and do not know what the RM factor is to it? The only real calculations I did around RM was for my shrouds. I'll check the books when I find the time

I promised a friend to show him the making of the 2nd halyard so I will probably do a double-braid next. But not tonight as we have a whole bunch of wet varnish and am not allowed to make dust :-)

So tonight it'll be watching some videos on the Samson and Brion Toss splices again. I'll just throw in another picture of the pilothouse we're working on as our primary project at the moment :-) This is a new dashboard in the making and below that a fresh Awlgrip job. That white coaming had 7 big instrument cut-outs extra just a couple of weeks ago.

[s/v Jedi]

Okay, one more:

Q: What is the most effective way to reduce aging of the running rigging?

A: Like what Uncivilized already posted: we put a Flemish eyesplice in the tail of every halyard and when we stop sailing for a couple of weeks or more, we replace the halyards with messenger lines. In all the years there are a couple of problems we found with this: we need halyards while not sailing. This can be to lift heavy things, or for the bosuns chair. This has lead to slacking discipline and faster aging.
I never let something like that happen again, which is why we're making the fancy topping lifts that we don't really need this time. They will stay rigged for non-sailing duties while the Dyneema halyards are safely stowed away

Right now I have also removed all four runner tails, jib furler line, sheets, staysail halyard, jib halyard, pole lift and probably a couple I forget