Marine insurance, going naked.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

Sure.

Are you sure?

I know of people with a lien on all their future income, because of bad luck. They're still breathing but would probably be better of dead...

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

...I know of people with a lien on all their future income, because of bad luck. They're still breathing but would probably be better of dead...

Yep, as I said, different laws, different countries.

[olaf hart]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Now I see why one needs so much insurance in the USA...

Sheriff warns against people 'shooting' Hurricane Irma - ABC News

That's dumb, the only way to stop a hurricane with a gun is to shoot straight up ...

[oldjags]

I'm going naked only because I can't find anyone to sell me any clothes! Pantaenius turned me down - said they don't sell liability-only insurance in the US.

Anyway, all the talk about uninsured sailors being more careful is BS. My first concern when boating is my personal safety, and that depends on the safety of the boat. So even if I had unlimited coverage, I'd still do everything I can think of to operate safely.

One place I would not want to be without coverage is Mexico. Have a car accident there and you can be arrested while they try and figure out who was at fault. Not sure, but I would think a boating accident would be the same. particularly if someone got injured.

Regardless of how careful you are, anchors drag, equipment can break at the exact wrong moment, props can get fouled and you can lose propulsion - I can think of a 100 things that can happen to even the most careful skipper.

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by oldjags

I'm going naked only because I can't find anyone to sell me any clothes! Pantaenius turned me down - said they don't sell liability-only insurance in the US.

Anyway, all the talk about uninsured sailors being more careful is BS. ...

Agreed. Totally.

The real reason we 'go naked', as you say, is the premiums are too high, when measured against the level of perceived risk. For example, you turn down Pantaenius because the premiums (for comprehensive cover, the only cover on offer) are too high for the risk you want covered (ie, liability only). I was in exactly this situation - the premiums on offer were higher than I wanted to pay for the risk I personally perceive. When I'm forced to take insurance because I can't enter a slip without it then I'll take the maximum deduction for the minimum premium.

I dare say, if premiums increased, let's say, tenfold (say, to cover increased losses due to hurricane damage) then, for those living outside the usual hurricane zones, many would in all probability think twice about renewing their insurance cover: the premiums would simply be too high for the perceived risk in their location. You get a quote, if the quote is outrageously high for the risk you perceive, then you go naked. This is a simple truth for everyone, except for many (say, those living in litigious countries for example) the premiums don't yet seem unreasonable. But everyone must have a price above which they will not go.

My contention is that the most careful among us will hit that maximum price barrier earlier than those who have had lots of accident claims in the past. That may well be BS but I can't think of a good reason why it would be untrue.

Apologies for hammering this point, it must be getting tiresome...

[picklesandjesse]

Here in Australia I've got $10,000,000 liability coverage for $350 per year and it's a trimaran. Not allowed to race though. Maybe I just got lucky with the insurance company. Youi.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Wotname

It seems to me that those who advocate "the uninsured are irresponsible" are also irresponsible. They pay someone else to care care of their "responsibilities" rather than do it themselves.

That's just plain stupid!

Most of us don't have a million dollars or more to pay out liability claims so we buy insurance to take care of our responsibilities.

For me, having liability insurance means I don't lose my house, my cars, my boat and my life savings because of an accident.

For the other party, me having liability insurance means he is made whole for his injuries.

It's called being a responsible adult. Some people never get there.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

...I dare say, if premiums increased, let's say, tenfold (say, to cover increased losses due to hurricane damage) then, for those living outside the usual hurricane zones, many would in all probability think twice about renewing their insurance cover: the premiums would simply be too high for the perceived risk in their location. You get a quote, if the quote is outrageously high for the risk you perceive, then you go naked. This is a simple truth for everyone, except for many (say, those living in litigious countries for example) the premiums don't yet seem unreasonable. But everyone must have a price above which they will not go.

Completely agree. Risk assessment/cost-benefit. If the cost is too high for the assessed risk, then by definition, it is waste of money. If you have lots of money, then wasting some doesn’t matter. But for most people, money is a limited resource that must be used wisely.

What’s always fascinating in these discussions is that some people don’t seem to undersrsannd how risk is assessed. Just b/c something can happen, doesn’t mean it will happen. The impact of an event can be huge, but if the likelihood of it happening it tiny, then the risk can be tiny.

Each of us has our own tolerance for risk. If your risk tolerance is zero (as some here seem to present), then it doesn’t matter what the insurance cost is; you’ll pay it. But for most people, we have to balance risk and cost. Money wasted on a piece of paper is money not available for things that would actually make you (and everyone around you) safer.

At this point some of you “WHAT IF!” folks are hauling out your anecdotes about burned marinas, smashed multi-million dollar yachts, and killed breadwinners. Yes … these things do happen. No doubt about it. But for each of these stories everyone of us here can produce a million others stories where the marina didn’t get burned down, the fancy yacht didn’t get damaged, and the breadwinner escaped death.

It’s called normal cruising life, and by any measure it is extremely safe for most cruisers most of the time. This is why 3rd party liability insurance (which I have, in case anyone cares), is so cheap. It’s not a high risk to underwrite.

Thinking rationally about a problem is the sign of being a responsible adult. Some people never get there.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

Yep, as I said, different laws, different countries.

Yep, but we are not all the US. The example I gave is from very much not litigious Netherlands...

Liability insurance insures _you_. Fine if you think that you are not worth insuring :-)

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

At this point some of you “WHAT IF!” folks are hauling out your anecdotes about burned marinas, ...

Fires in marines damaging other yachts are not a rare occurrence. No wonder that most marinas require you to be insured for liability.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

The real reason we 'go naked', as you say, is the premiums are too high, when measured against the level of perceived risk. For example, you turn down Pantaenius because the premiums (for comprehensive cover, the only cover on offer) are too high for the risk you want covered (ie, liability only). I was in exactly this situation - the premiums on offer were higher than I wanted to pay for the risk I personally perceive. When I'm forced to take insurance because I can't enter a slip without it then I'll take the maximum deduction for the minimum premium.

I find it a bit off that you can't get liability insurance. I have seen quotes (for less than 100 Euro per annum) for liability-only insurance from Pantaenius. This was for a pure "skippers" insurance, in case you don't own a boat, but want liability anyway because you regularly sail other peoples' boats.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

Fires in marines damaging other yachts are not a rare occurrence. No wonder that most marinas require you to be insured for liability.

You’re going to have to define “not rare”, and show me your evidence. Any stat I’ve seen (look up USCG boating stats … it all publicly available) clearly indicates boat fires are extremely rare. If they weren’t rare then liability insurance would be a lot more expensive.

[Zven]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

What’s always fascinating in these discussions is that some people don’t seem to understand how risk is assessed. Just b/c something can happen, doesn’t mean it will happen. The impact of an event can be huge, but if the likelihood of it happening it tiny, then the risk can be tiny...

Humans are notoriously bad at assessing risks and probabilities... and more generally very small numbers, and very big numbers. It takes considerable effort to understand these things properly... perhaps because it's generally far removed from daily life experiences. Or perhaps because it is mathematics, which most people take little interest in. I guess this is what makes gambling and lotteries insanely profitable ... so much so that many governments outlaw it, or monopolize it. Learning about and understanding risk and probabilities in various areas can be most rewarding.

[hafa]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

I find it a bit off that you can't get liability insurance. I have seen quotes (for less than 100 Euro per annum) for liability-only insurance from Pantaenius. This was for a pure "skippers" insurance, in case you don't own a boat, but want liability anyway because you regularly sail other peoples' boats.

Pantaenius will not sell insurance to anyone in Micronesia. Atol kindly provided a link to Edward William in this thread; they are the first to ever respond with a quote...

[Zven]

One thing I have found with insurance companies is that they care a lot about what you supply as your main address... Even if that is irrelevant to the issue.

As an example, I have a few addresses in Europe and Asia, for postal purposes. I have had more success getting insurance quotes based around a European address. That is, for the same sailing area (in Asia).

Other aspects of personal details can also be varied in numerous ways ... E.g. a spouse can apply for insurance rather than the captain doing it.

So there is a tip for those who struggle to get insurance: Try to shake up your basic details a bit. See what happens then.