charts for trans Atlantic voyage

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Depending on your personal habits as well as how many in your crew the 79 gallon water tanks may not go that far.
Having said that I cruised on a 36 footer for a year offshore with half that water and we could go almost a month using it only for rinsing and drinking/cooking. So you can get by without a water maker as when we started there wasn't such a thing and no one had one but these days the cruisers want more basic comfort and this includes me, LOL. Good luck in your prep times.

A month on 40 gallons is pretty good. We did 45 days on 75 gallons with 3 on board including a pint each every couple of days to rinse after a salt water shower. But we did cheat. We had 20-25 gallons in jugs that we use for drinking water and the tank water mainly for cooking but we did have some water left in the tanks when we finally checked into a marina to top off.

[goboatingnow]

I did a delivery across the atlantic a few years ago in a yacht , 4 crew, restricted water tankage. thats where the 4 litres per day came from, No pressurised water , no showers, sea water initial wash,

it can be done, if a little smelly-ily

dave

[chuckr]

we sailed across from antigua last may -- we got charts for the cross from billingham along with cruising guides for the med -- we have a water maker and love it and have had one for 3 years --
just watch the weather - we used chris parker all the way to the azores via our ssb -- saying that the real question is how are you getting your wx -- we use the ssb and had daily emails from parker along with gribs --
i should also say we watched the wx closely before we left and there was a small window a week before we left - we found out later that 3 boats left and were never heard from again - our decision was the wx window was just not right and we were right --
but for charts go to bellingham

oh and study up on the schengren agreement

just our opinion and thoughts
chuck patty and svsoulmates
in port yasmine hammemet tunisia for the winter

[robert sailor]

Tell you what, if you have a real good supply of towels and some big plastic bags you don't need a fresh water rinse. Use something like Dawn dish soap that lathers very good in salt water for body soap and shampoo. Towel off as soon as you get out of the water and amazingly you will be clean and fresh, did this for a year. The downside is that after awhile the towels will smell like crazy, thats where the large plastic bags come in. On the way from Mexico to Hawaii my Son joined us and we filled old pop bottle containers with water(you could not buy bottled water then) and made the trip in super light winds in 26 days and we had over 1/4 tanks left when we arrived. Like others have said when you don't have it its amazing how you can get by without it. If I would have had 80 gallons in those days it would have been easy peasy.

[Wraith_Mac]

Bellingham Charts, BELLINGHAM CHARTS...is this an autocorrect problem?
LOL
Cheers,
Mac

[Palarran]

I've bought all the paper charts but haven't used one yet. I think next year I'll skip them. I use the pilot books 5 times a day though.

My chart plotter is freaky accurate and very detailed. C-maps by Jeppson.

Do you have Cornells "World Cruising Routes"? It's worth the investment.

Imray makes a single chart of the North Atlantic, that should do for the Azores. There aren't many ports anyway. There are also large area charts of the west and east Med. In an emergency they will keep you from running into a rock. But, IMO, chart plotter mapping and pilot books are all you really need.

My water maker is way up on the list of essentials. We use a ton (almost literally) of water per day. Yes, it is available and generally clean, but it takes a lot of effort to Med moor the boat, run the hose, fill up, etc. They you usually have to get a slip in order to do this which can cost a fortune.

[roland stockham]

Did the trip the other way last season. For the altantic crossing we had one chart. British admiralty N.Atlantic southern part. Its all you need. You then need an approach chart and local charts for your landing. There is where the problem is. We aimed for Jamaica and finished up in St Lucia (no wind in the north and it was divert or motor the last several hundred miles) So my advice buy approach charts and local charts for where you HOPE to go and rely on the chart plotter cartridge for where you actually land. Most main European ports are have well marked entrances and can be safely entered in daylight with quite large scale charts.
I use a laptop for charting (Cmap & SOB) which also means you can print backup charts for ports you think you might want. Its almost worth they cost of the system just for this! But if you use a laptop put it away for the crossing - we didn't and both laptops failed because they were sat on the chart table on a wet chart and got salt into the works. Mind, we did have green waves braking over the cabin for a week but on the eastbound crossing you are in the westerlies and that sort of weather is to be expected!
Last there are a number of companies in the UK that sell second hand charts. These are mostly ex big boat charts that have been cancelled so cannot be fully updated. The bouyage may not be up to date but otherwise they are fine and less than half price. The Billingham charts are a good (I used them) option but they are in black and white and on quite light paper so I would not recommend them for other than backup.
Unlike the USA charts in Europe are a significant cost. I changed to electronics simple because I culd not afford paper ones!!!
Have a good crossing.

[ralphmacey]

Thanks for all the info. If I do go with a watermaker, an recommendation on make and capacity?

Thanks
Bud

[roland stockham]

Water is the key provision, you can last a month without food and survive but a couple of days without water and you won't function. The absolute min is 2L per person per day, you drink ALL of it and stay alive. How much more you need is subjective.
We had 50gal between two and it just lasted a month at sea. I would defiantly carry the min ration in separate jugs. I mean SEPARATE SMALL JUGS STOWED BELOW. We carried emergency water in gal cans, one on deck and one below. The one below leaked and the one on deck got washed overboard
If possible base you estimate of need on what you have used when cruising/anchoring. If you cant carry that much think about how you will save. A salt water shower is a good start. We had daily rinses in seawater when it was hot and they where very refreshing. Wet wipes or waterless wash (ask at the pharmacy, it's used in long term care) are another good way of saving as is turning off the pressure water and using a hand pump. Some people say cook in salt water but unless you are use to lots of salt in your diet it spoils the food, I definatly can't take. The last point is to think about collection. In a good rain shower there s gallons of the stuff running of sails, canopies and decks, a clean tarp with a hose attached can make a good collector. The limitation is that if the rain is combined with rough seas it is no good because you get salt spay in it.
Pro's and cons of water-makers.
First there are two types.
Hand one for emergency use are excellent, reliable and may save you in the life raft. They are slow but 1h per day will give a crew of 2/3 enough to live on without severe rationing. You can pick up ex military units reconditioned on Ebay for about $600. I got one for the pacific leg as we could be at sea for 2 months and can't carry enough water.
Electric ones. Never had one but lots of people do especially in the Caribbean. They are very expensive but seam to work and mean you have as much water as you want. As usual in boating, luxury at a price.
Remember;
A power water-maker does not create water from nothing but converts DIESEL into water. You may regret that if you are waiting for wind a few hundred miles offshore or cant run the nav system because the batteries are flat and the diesel tank is dry tank. Don't expect solar power to make any difference but if you have a towed or prop-shaft generator that will. (they are a good idea anyway in case the charging system goes down)
Most of the one suitable for small yachts run on electricity and that is your most vulnerable provision, any engine, battery, starting or wiring problem and you have no water so at least make sure your tanks stay full! If you run the tank down then find your system is not working... Make sure you always maintain a min safe supply for the likely time left at sea.
The electronic units seam popular in the Caribbean because in harbour water is charged (sometime quite a lot) and can be in short supply or dubious quality. I Europe water is free, easy to get and clean. Tap water in EC countries is higher standard that any bottle supply in the supermarket. Means you only need a water-maker for long passages and the one thing they hate is irregular use so they are much less popular.
My choice was not to fit a power one but to carry a hand unit. I would definitely say they are a luxury not a necessity and are for making life comfortable not safer. A cheaper and safer option is jugs or an extra flexible tank under a bunk. Sailing teaches you the difference between need and want very quickly!

[ralphmacey]

Thanks Roland, I am leaning toward "not" installing a watermaker for the Mediterranean trip, although I will be returning through the Carribean. I did get a manual water maker off of Ebay and bought a new membrane. Conservation is clearly important and keeping adequate reserves. I do have a tow water generator and a 345 watt solar panel as well as a 1000 watt Honda gasoline generator. I plan on getting a satellite phone, no SSB. can you think of other needs?

[MARC D]

Ralph,

Do you have an auto-pilot or a windvane? Or both?

If you don't have a windvane, spare parts for your AP is a good idea.

Marc

[ralphmacey]

Marc,
I have a new Raymarine Autopilot and a back up (older) autohelm.

Je suis à Montréal maintenant.

Bon soirée.

[MARC D]

No kidding!!! I'm there too!!!

Going back to the boat soon though.

Au plaisir,

Marc

[chuckr]

agree on the electronic charts and the cruising guides - incredible helpful - and very accruate --
as for watermaker - we put on a kadyan(sp) with 3.5 gal/hr -- we run it about an hour or 2 each day and more than enough water - and we run it off our solar panels

just our thoughts and opinions
chuck patty and svsoulmates
in port yasmine hammemet tunisia for the winter

[ka4wja]

Ralph,
1) First off, please understand that EVERYONE is different, and what I (and others) recommend might not suit your perfectly...
But, we will try to give you the advice we believe would be best and/or an example of what we do...

2) Next, understand that since I started as an ocean sailor / long range cruiser back as a kid in the mid 1960's, I learned things a bit differently....and hence have some different priorities...
After you place keeping the boat floating and the rig/mast/sails all up and working, at the top of the list, my personal priorities are:
Water....some food...a good compass...decent paper charts...

{yes, I do have GPS on-board, as well as a full suite of electronics, chart plotters, etc. but I still use paper charts as my primary charting, with my Navionics charts / chartplotters as secondary...oh, and yes I do also use my sextant, but now it's just for fun!!}

I have sailed across the Atlantic multiple times....my first was > 30+ years ago, well before GPS! and my latest couple of times (on my current boat) were in 2007....



So, with those prefaces....

Originally Posted by ralphmacey

I am planning a trip from Jacksonville, Fl to Bermuda, the Azores then Lisbon and the Mediterranean starting next May. I would like some advice on sources of nautical charts, recommended charts, paper and digital. I have a Garmin chartplotter but I want paper charts too. Everything I see is so expensive. I am willing to pay for good products however. Cruising guide recommendations would be welcome too. I have a Hallberg Rassy 352.

3) Bluewater Books and Charts, is where I've been buying my charts/books/etc. for about 30 years now and everytime I call them for a chart or two (or a dozen) they have 'em, they'll print 'em, or they'll find 'em for me in a day!!!
They WILL get you any chart you desire!!
{But for many newer sailors the more important thing they do is, they will recommend charts that would be best for your application (NOT the most expensive ones, nor the most charts that they can sell you)....I've heard this back, from many who I've sent to them, so it's not just Bluewater's sales pitch saying that...}
Cruising guides, Navigational Charts and other supplies - Bluewater Books & Charts

Please understand that when buying/comparing paper charts, there is a BIG difference between "chart paper" that US NOAA, NGA and Ocean Graphix (and full-size BA charts) are printed on, versus photocopier paper....and you should inquire about the paper used by aftermarket chart printers....
As well as the "semi-glossy" paper of Imray and waterproof charts...

Real chart paper (what I refer to as simply chart paper) will last for decades!!! (I still have some of my late father's old paper charts from the 1960's!!)
It is easy to fold (or roll-up), and can be folded and re-folded many, many times without issue....
And most importantly can be written on and drawn on many, many times (courses plotted / waypoints placed, and then erased, and then re-drawn upon multiple times, with no issues..) I always use a #2 pencil...
It can get wet, completely drenched actually, and not tear, not smear, and after drying out is "good as new"...
(oh and it "feels" right too!)



4) Bellingham Chart Printer's, as others have already mentioned, is a good place to source charts if you are on a tight budget...
And while, I have not personally done business with them, they do have a good reputation...
Bellingham Chart Printers


5) Being born in the US and being most familiar with feet and fathoms (rather than meters)....and being that English is my native language (I speak and read some French and Spanish), I prefer US charts (NOAA and NGA)...or British Charts (BA)...
I do have some French charts, Spanish charts, and even a few older Yugoslavian charts...but I always choose US first, and BA second, and French third...
Do not underestimate the frustrations if going from a feet/fathoms chart to one with soundings in meters (or vice-verse)....it isn't difficult to do, but frustrating....and I make a point of writing "Soundings in METERS" along the borders of any of my charts that are in meters, just as a reminder!!



6) If you desire a complete list of charts / chart numbers, I'd need to head down the dock and look at my chart lists...(if you want to see my exact list, please PM me, and give me a few days to get around to it..)

But (in my opinion), in brief, I think you should have:

For crossing the Atlantic (FL-Ber-Az-Lisb-Gib):
NGA #120 N. Atl (southern part)...probably two of 'em
NGA #108 N. Atl (East coast of N. Amer, include Bermuda, etc.)
NGA #126 N. Atl. (NE part, including Azores, Port, Spain, Gib)


For near-offshore / coastal plotting, and possible "bail out" locations (US Southeast Coast):
NOAA # 11480 (Cape Canv to Charleston)
NOAA # 11520 (Charleston to Cape Hatt)
and maybe #12200 (Haat to Cape may)

{And, for possible "bait-out" locations, at least SOME of these, depending on what ports/inlets you think possible:
NOAA #11502 (Fern to Dolby Sound)
NOAA #11509 (Dolby to Tybee)
NOAA #11513 (Savannah to St. Helena)
NOAA #11521 (Charleston Har and appr)
NOAA #11531 (Bulls to Winyah)
NOAA #11535
NOAA #11536
NOAA #11543
NOAA #11544
NOAA #11555
NOAA #12204 }



And, for Bermuda, Azores:

Either the Imray chart kits for Ber, Azores, etc. such a:
E5 and E1...

Or US NGA charts for Ber and Azores:
NGA #26340
#26341
#26342 and #26344

#51002, 51061, 51081, 51062, etc...

(I have both the NGA and Imray charts, and both are good...but the NGA charts are easier to write/plot on, and the Imray's have better color...and the Imray's are cheaper..)



For Portugal, Spain, Gib, etc.:
Imray C20
NGA #51007
NGA #51150
NGA #51160
NGA #52039

NGA #51142
Plus whatever other harbor charts, for any other ports you may desire and/or need, such as Cadiz / Rota, etc.




7) Guidebooks, etc...
Alard Coles / Aberdeen Asset, REEDS Nautical Almanac (covering Atlantic Europe from Denmark to Gibraltar), is a GREAT resource and I recommend it highly!!
Reeds Nautical Almanac 2014 out soon
(this is one book that isn't on the shelves at Bluewater Books and Charts, and you should order it directly from Cowes)
This is an almost necessity to have....


And, Imray publishes some nice books, pilots, and almanacs...(pick what you need)..
Publications
Charts

Although the Imray books are great, and you will learn a lot from them, with the internet, SSCA, Cruiser's Forum, etc. etc...spending too much $$$ on guidebooks thesedays can be a waste, so spend cautiously here....
The "Atlantic Islands" book is nice...but look around to find it on sale!!



8) Electronic Charts...
You have a Garmin chartplotter, so you'll use Garmin Blue Charts....and I hear that they're pretty good, but you should get some real-world experience from someone that has used them in Bermuda, Azores, and Atlantic Europe / Mediterranean....(I have Raymarine E-120 and E-80, w/ Navionics charts..and they are surprisingly good/accurate!)




I hope this helps...(if you want some more details, let me know..)

Fair winds!

John
s/v Annie Laurie


P.S. As for your WATER TANKAGE.....while you should be fine (especially if you tank additional drinking water, in jugs), you will probably find a small water capacity to impact your lifestyle and effect quality of life...
Speaking for myself, and my desires, only....I would take MORE WATER and worry less about fuel capacity, as it is a sailboat and as long as you have water to drink (and some food), you'll get there eventually
For LOTS of info on water capacities, watermakers, etc. I can point you to other threads...