azores 2014 how safe is it?

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Insequent

BandB
IIRC Steve & Linda Dashew noted that one of the benefits of switching from sail to power is that they can avoid taking on crew for passagemaking. They took Windhorse all over the place with just the two of them on board. Whereas with sail, albeit in bigger boats than most folks have, they did need extra crew. It seems they did not always enjoy having crew with them.

Its going to depend on the people, their experience and preferences and the way the boat is setup.

And the size of the boat plays a role.

[ka4wja]

Mark,
No worries here, just my thoughts..

Not sure if you've ever been there, but in my opinion the Azores are a fantastic place to visit and cruise around..

Originally Posted by MarkJ

The Azores are just a group of islands used by some to break up what seems to some a long passage.

Okay, not as fun as the Bahamas but certainly wonderful geography and scenery, and really cool people / culture...(just my opinion here, but a LOT nicer than most of Europe!)





Yeah, if you're in the Caribbean and all you want is to get to the Med as quickly as possible, Bermuda is certainly not the way to go....and the Azores might be out of your way...(and even if leaving from the US, Bermuda is usually out of the way for many...)

Originally Posted by MarkJ

One must work out what the real objective is. Is it to get to the Med? Or is it to do a tour of high latitude islands like Bermuda and the Azores? Or are these islands just the stop off points to let unfit, unsuspecting, crews recover and pretend the passage wasn't all that far?

But, depending on the wind/weather you have along your passage you may find yourself heading further away from your "planned route" (great circle or rhumb line)....and the Azores might end up being pretty close to your route...


Now a bit more opinion here...
You say that Bermuda and Azores, are "high latitude islands"???
Maybe for tropical / trade wind sailors....but many most think 32*N and 38*N to be "mid-latitudes"....
Now, I'm a warm weather sailor....but my parents sailed the Orkneys and Shetlands, and at 59* to 61*, I'd call them "high latitude islands"!!!



Just my thoughts...

Fair winds

John
s/v Annie Laurie

[ka4wja]

Nick has written some insightful comments that I'd like to highlight and provide further context/opinion...



I couldn't agree more...

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Exhaustion is a funny thing: it may not be noticed until it's too late to control, because it is easily masked by other effects like the excitement of sailing off into the blue, drinking a lot of coffee, trouble with crew, weather, equipment etc.

The more experienced the captain/crew becomes at long passages, the less this is a concern....but for those new to long passages, or even those returning to them after years on-shore or "island hopping", please understand that your brain CAN get caught up in other matters (even subconsciously), and REAL sleep can be severely effected, without you actually knowing it...
Sticking to watch schedules, and regular routines, as well as regular sleep periods, are important for most to maintain BOTH good physical health AND good mental health.
(yeah, there are some rare exceptions to the above....but for 99.9% of you reading this, please don't let ego or machismo get in the way of both your safety and enjoyment!!!







Here again, I couldn't agree more!!

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Let me put up another point: food and drink. One or two hot meals a day, plenty coffee, tea, snacks, energy bars etc. and fixed times for the meals.
Have deserts, starters, use nice plates and tableware instead of eating out of cans. The importance of these things can be hard to grasp but with some passages behind you will be very clear.

If those reading this are like most of the rest of the 1st world, you love good food!
No matter what your tastes / preferences, almost everyone feels better, smarter, healthier, better rested, more energized, etc. eating good food!!

When people ask me "what do I provision with, for my ocean passage", etc. = My answer is quite simple....
As long as you have the space on-board (and/or in your frig/freezer), provision with what YOU (and your crew) like to eat!!
Modify these desires as needed to make meals that are easy to prepare at sea, sometimes pre-cooked is also great..
But, the lesson here is to provision and cook what you like!!

And in this vein, a galley that is set-up to actually cook in, easily/safely, when at sea is VERY important....actually, in my opinion, it is SO IMPORTANT that I should've made it part of the "basics" like keeping the mast up, etc...
Also, having cook(s) that can actually cook/prepare meals in that galley, while at sea, is something that you will not truly appreciate until you're out there and been at sea for a week or two!!!
You remember that old saying "Kiss the Cook"....well it really applies here!!




I agree here as well...

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Let me just go on with the next point: sleeping, showering etc. Every boat doing passages must have a shower. If the boat is small, use one of those bags you hang up on deck.

Nothing like a fresh water shower and a nice meal to make everyone feel great!!!
But, I DO understand that many don't have the water capacity for this....and depending on time-of-year and temperature, some would need to run an engine or genset to have hot water for showering...
Which is why even with >210 gals of fresh water (in 5 tanks) on-board AND a Spectra watermaker (and plenty of solar to run everything), I also still have one of those 5 gallon "Sun Showers", a few hours in the sun and you've got enough for a couple people to have a nice hot shower, with no engine/genset running at all...








I DISAGREE with Nick here 100%...

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I am pro alcohol aboard: a (one) drink with the whole crew before dinner is very good for morale and the perfect moment for the captain to evaluate performance, do the pep talk etc.

I know this puts me in the minority here-a-bouts....but this is my opinion...
I NEVER allow any alcohol to be consumed while underway and certainly would never recommend that anyone else do either....
(yeah, I might even a glass of red wine a couple times a year, or maybe a cold beer once or twice a summer...but I'm mostly an Iced Tea and Lemonade guy, as well as fruit juice or skim milk...sorry I know that's not "macho" enough to be considered an old salt, but that's just the way I am...although I never judge others for what they imbibe in, not at all...I just don't recommend it while underway and at sea!!)









Like most non-trade offshore passages, this applies to an eastbound N. Atlantic crossing....

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Navigation must be combined with weather routing: for this crossing (I never did it so would be nice if some of the veterans fall in here)

And, this part of what I was driving at when I wrote:

1 --- There is no such thing as a "weather window" to sail across the Atlantic...(nothing wrong with waiting for nice weather and decent forecast, before departing...but after a few days, you'll simply be sailing with the weather that's out there, and use what weather info you have to improve your VMG and comfort...accept that now and don't worry!!!)

I hope some find these comments helpful.

John
s/v Annie Laurie

[ka4wja]

Alex,
NAVTEX is a great tool for short-term forecasts (typically out 24 hours) in coastal and near-offshore areas (out to approx. 200 miles offshore)...

Originally Posted by atoll

another useful tool to have around the islands,and continental europe is NAVTEX

And, while this applies to all of Europe, the Med, North Sea, UK waters, and even Azores, etc. it does NOT provide weather info/forecasts for crossing the Atlantic, nor any long-term forecasts...
Having a dedicated NAVTEX receiver is a good idea for those cruising Europe and the Med, but for actually crossing the Atlantic, it would not be of much use...


(yes, it will provide good weather info within 200 miles of the US coast, and around Bermuda and Azores, etc...these are usually short-term forecasts and with much more areas and much longer term forecasts provided over HF radio, there are few who will use NAVTEX until within a few hundred miles of Europe...)




I hope this helps...

John
s/v Annie Laurie

[BandB]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

I DISAGREE with Nick here 100%... I know this puts me in the minority here-a-bouts....but this is my opinion...
I NEVER allow any alcohol to be consumed while underway and certainly would never recommend that anyone else do either....
(yeah, I might even a glass of red wine a couple times a year, or maybe a cold beer once or twice a summer...but I'm mostly an Iced Tea and Lemonade guy, as well as fruit juice or skim milk...sorry I know that's not "macho" enough to be considered an old salt, but that's just the way I am...although I never judge others for what they imbibe in, not at all...I just don't recommend it while underway and at sea!!)

Well, we join you in the minority then. We do drink occasionally, primarily champagne, occasionally mixed drinks, never beer, so that puts us in another minority. But we do not drink and drive nor allow others to do it. Not in our cars. Not in our boats. And that extends to anyone doing a task on the boat from deck to engine to equipment, things that would be considered "work" in some context. Same on boat as in office. We're the type who if we are going to have wine with dinner in a nice restaurant, we're going to get a taxi.

Now, alcohol on a crossing could have further negative impact as dehydration is already a concern and alcohol consumption increases that risk. One needs the right food and drink to be on top of their game. For us personally, that's lots of water.

[ka4wja]

Jim brings up a good point, that I'd like to expand on..

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Re comments along the line of "several crew and a wind vane and lots of diesel are necessary for a safe and successful passage":

This would have come as a surprise to Eric and Susan Hiscock, who managed to circumnavigate in Wanderer III by themselves, hand steering, and with a tiny engine, seldom used.

While having self-steering and/or reliable electric autopilot(s), is a good idea for most (me, included), we are mostly talking about sailboats here...and the "jerry jug farms" I see growing on the rails of many boats surprise (and concern) me!!!

I don't want to turn this into a debate about "sailing", etc. not about engines, fuel mileage, etc....(remember these are SAILBOATS)
But, on a long Atlantic crossing, carrying some diesel separate from your tanks is acceptable by most, and some think it's a good idea....perhaps enough to motor for a day (or motor-sail for a a day or two)....so for most boats this would be 10 - 15 gallons...

{FYI, I carry 88 gal below, in 2 tanks (approx. 76 gals useable)....and under power alone, I burn about 1/2 gal per hour at 5 - 5.5 kts, with my Yanmar spinning a 21" Autoprop...giving me that 1 to 1.5 days motoring with my 3 jerry jugs...and in my most recent Atlantic crossings, I used just about 20 gallons across the whole Atlantic....and almost all of that was the last 100 miles into Horta and the next to last day into Gibraltar....and on my most recent westbound crossing, I had little to no wind from Gib to Lanzorte, Canary and I burned 20 gals motoring that leg quite a bit...but only a few gallons the whole rest of the way to the USVI....
Understand that if you have enough solar (which I do), and some alternative when the skies are overcast, such as a towed water-gernerator (which I do), there is NO need to burn any diesel for "on-board energy", and you can use whatever diesel you have for propulsion!!
I have said it before and been laughed at, but it is TRUE...
Solar panels increase your range!!! }



Again, I don't want to get into a debate about diesel, motoring, etc....I just wanted to state that many/most cruisers these days seem to be carrying WAY TOO MUCH on their rails...
Get rid of the "jerry jug farms" (and add more solar) and you'll be a LOT happier and save money too!!



I hope this helps..


John
s/v Annie Laurie

[sparau]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

I hope some find these comments helpful.

John
s/v Annie Laurie

Wow, this thread is an excellent "set sail" list for any passage, thank you all

(sorry for interrupting )

[ka4wja]

I have some photos (and brief descriptions) from a recent Atlantic crossing of mine....
Have a look...
Annie Laurie Translant



And, If a picture is worth a 1000 words....what about Video???

It just dawned on me that I have a Youtube video of my eastbound Atlantic crossing, leaving S. Florida end of June 2007, for Gibraltar....stopping in Azores...
Have a look, but please excuse my horrible camera work!! (Oh and I have added/changed some things on-board, since then, to make life at sea even better...

Atlantic Crossing, Sailing Across the Atlantic, Eastbound, from S. FL to Gibraltar, June/July 2007 - YouTube

(You can see me use my big asym and even see my "Sun Shower" hanging there...)



And, I have other sailing and radio communications videos on my Youtube page...

captainjohn49 - YouTube




I hope some find these useful/enjoyable...




You're welcome....

Originally Posted by sparau

Wow, this thread is an excellent "set sail" list for any passage, thank you all

(sorry for interrupting )

No worries about interrupting...



Fair winds....

John
s/v Annie Laurie

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

Mark,
No worries here, just my thoughts..

Not sure if you've ever been there, but in my opinion the Azores are a fantastic place to visit and cruise around..... certainly wonderful geography and scenery, and really cool people / culture...


Yeah, if you're in the Caribbean and all you want is to get to the Med as quickly as possible, Bermuda is certainly not the way to go....and the Azores might be out of your way

John
s/v Annie Laurie

Hi John,

I think we are saying the same thing.
No I havent been to the Azores, but I did the planning for it a few years ago and am doing the trip next year.
Of course if someone wants to see the Azores then thats different from one just using them as a convenient stop off. I do sometimes err on the side of getting to the major destinations as directly as possible. Being solo its easier. (Maybe why theres so many non-stop round the world solo sailors. Its easier than day hopping 30,000 nms!)

The point that I was investigating last time I did the planning was how much a direct route would save, and how much it would be possible with the newer (as in not square rigged ships) upwind performing boats.

The chart here is a bit difficult to read as its overlaid with the May pilot. The direct Great Circle Rout is about 350 NMs from Horta, south.

The direct route is 3300nms. Via Bermuda and Horta its 3,800nms

The Azores route is 3,000nms above 30 deg north; 1,100nms above 35 deg north.

The direct route is 1,400nms above 30 deg of which only 500nms is above 35 deg N

My old windy nose has always shown the adage to be correct to stay where the butter melts... and higher than 30 degrees the weather anywhere in the world begins to get more iffy.

But the boat wants to be good into the wind and in lighter wind. A lot of heavy cruising boats wouldnt like the direct route at all. (especially the .4knot counter current!).
Being on the direct route theres a fair bit of route fluctuation for weather patterns too. it doesnt matter how far north of the course one goes as the wind will eventually begin to support you. Hell, if it doesnt work just head north and do it the traditional way.

So the direct route may be slower in boat speed, and more upwind but 500nms shorter and half the distance above 30 and 35 than the traditional route. With a bit of luck you never go into a box with a Gale prediction above 0 on the pilot charts, where the other route you are in 3's or 1's almost the whole way. (OK the direct route goes through one or two boxs with a 1)

After doing 1,400 miles upwaind last year - ho, ho it was fun I would be interested in doing double that for this route if the benifits were better weather, less gales and get to Gibralter quicker over all and in one piece.

But yes, I would miss, what I have heard from many people, the beautiful Azores.

[Blue Crab]

I smile and say about the only gear we share in common, John, is that Sun Shower. Nice boat. That 20kts must be nice too. When I feel a need for speed, I get on my bicycle!

Thanks for the interlude; I'm going back to the Armchair Cruiser's Forum where I belong.

[SaltyMonkey]

Nice video but I would dump the junk like the BBQ

[atoll]

sparau,no worries about interupting good to have you onboard,and markj good input thanks

also i have been asked by Orchidius if we could include some west bound routes from europe,for discussion,which i am more than happy to do.

Hey there,

First of all I'd like to thank you for starting the thread about the Azores. I've been able to get a lot from it, and I'm sure many others have as well.

The one downside in my opinion is that the topic focuses on the eastbound route as far as weather/routing is concerned. I'm unsure wether this is because the majority of the cruisers on this forum will be crossing the Atlantic in that direction, or just by chance.

Do you think there is enough interest to open a second topic discussing weather/routing for the Westbound passage, or to integrate it in the existing topic at all?

Cheers,

Ben

[SaltyMonkey]

integrate. Im curious about all approaches

[atoll]

from Anne Hammick," wrestler of leigh",falmouth,cornwall,
who compiled the rcc pilot,who co-incidently comes from my home port,
and who's sister on "lone rival",we have met in a few exotic locations!
keep up the good work!


possible routes
falmouth to ponta delgada or horta
1150M and 1200M respectively. May to august. sail as near the rhumb line as conditions permit.the current sets southeast and prevailing winds are between southwest and northwest

bayona or lisbon to ponta delgada
750M and 800M respectively. may to august. sail a rhumb line course, allowing for
south going current and the likelihood of northerly winds, particularly in midsummer. the reverse leg should be similar

gibraltar to ponta delgada
1000M . may to august. coastal or direct route to cabo sao vincente, then as for lisbon. the reverse leg should be similar


perhaps a member that has done the northen route would care to comment.

[SaltyMonkey]

Originally Posted by atoll

from Anne Hammick," wrestler of leigh",falmouth,cornwall,
who compiled the rcc pilot,who co-incidently comes from my home port,
and who's sister on "lone rival",we have met in a few exotic locations!
keep up the good work!

This is very good.