1993 Hunter 42 Passage no flush, lots O stink

[K1MGY]

First, I can't comprehend the Hunter-supplied schematic diagram of the plumbing system (or for that matter, the whole document). It's a very poor pdf rendering of a likely equally poor document. I'm a novice sailboat owner and the sellers broker was unable to offer much information. So I tried, but so far no luck.

Problem: a month back the forward head was not flushing. Deduced it was the joker valve. Pumped out the bowl and removed the head, then blocked both water supply and hose to the black water tank, as future intention is to convert this forward head into storage area. Figured problem solved.

New problem: now the aft head is dancing to the same tune. It flushed the few times I used it, but today (and away from home port, of course) she decided to just fill with sea water and spin the contents around (gross!! try not to visualize). Had to drain it out.

The romance of sailing.

The black water tank was pumped out just a week ago, so I know it's near empty.

Found macerator pump and overboard valve. Way offshore of course. Tried this to empty my overfilled aft head. NO JOY. Which is very odd indeed.

Questions:
1. Where, o where is the black water tank?
2. Is there a vent that might be blocked? Where can I find it?
3. Is there a filter for the vent (maybe this is source point of stink?)
4. Is there a way to shut off the sea water intake so that at least the bowl doesn't overflow when operating the electric pump?

Until I get a composting toilet, this has to be repaired, especially as I'm traveling with the boat.

Hopeful that another 1993 passage owner might offer some suggestions.

Thank you!

[pcmm]

Sorry don't own one but googled the manual....Holk heck its detailed! Wish they were that good for my era of boat!! ANy way according to the manual, the tank is under the floor just foreward of the galley sink location. the intake for the forward head should be under an access panel in the floor at the forward end of the stbd settee. You should be able to shut it off there.

According to the manual the macerator pump empties the holding tank so if its empty the macerator pump won't drain the bowl if its blocked. To me is sounds like its highly likely that the head discharge hoses are calcified up and likely blocked. THis is normal and happens to all heads eventually, sepcially if the head doesn't get pumped fully or used often.

Its unlikely that there is a filter on the vent line for the black water tank. They don't help much anyway. The stink is almost always permeated hoses. again, they don't last forever

[peghall]

I'll be glad to help you sort out how your sanitation should work and what you need to do make it work correctly and get rid of the odor. But first I need answers to some questions:

Is the toilet manual or electric? Do you know its make/model/approx age and that of any other equipment in the system(macerator or other pump to dump the tank, hoses (there should be writing on them every few feet)? If you don't know the answers, post photos. All toilet bowls look alike so I'll need to see the "works" (manual toilet PUMP taken from above it, lectric toilet pump/motor assembly...remove any cover on it).
Photos of the plumbing can be useful too so we can see anything that doesn't make any sense. Once I know the make/model of your toilet, I can post the toilet mfr's owner manual.

The black water tank shouldn't be too hard to find...trace the toilet discharge line from the toilet to it. That's likely to require figuring out how to see what's on the other side of any bulkheads. Or hopefully another Passage owner will be able to tell you where it is.

The only vent line--and yes, there has to be one--will come off the tank, most likely it'll be at the top of one end. There will have been no logic applied to which end.
If there's a filter in the vent line, it would have been installed by a PO. If it ever got wet due to tank overflowing or just due to heeling, it's blocked...remove it. A blocked vent will result in a pressurized system that will prevent flushing and also interfere with pumpout.

(I think this question answers one of my questions--your toilet is electric. If it uses sea water, there will a seacock on the toilet's flush water intake thru-hull that needs to be open to let it bring in water, closed when leaving the boat.A correctly located vented loop in the intake will prevent water from flooding the bowl when not in use. Correct location for it depends on the make/model of your toilet. If your toilet is designed to use onboard pressurized freshwater, there should be an electric solenoid valve in the intake that controls the flow of flush water.

That's enough to start from...


--Peggie

[desodave]

You need to hope that Peggy Hall responds here ... she is our resident authority in this area. You should have 2 waste tanks, one for each head. Are the heads seawater or fresh water? If the former, you need to find the through hulls for the intakes quickly. If you've "blocked" the line you need to close the through hull or you could soon have a sinking boat problem.
It certainly sounds like blocked vents but what's the boat history? Has it been unused for a long time? Strange that both have the same problems unless they've been left full of waste for a long time . If you've found the deck fittings for the pumpouts, the vents should be close by on the hull. Put a water hose with a jet nozzle on it. Just make sure they're not a fuel tank vent, ie, find that vent first ... again will be in vicinity of fuel fill fitting.
What happened when you opened the pumpout deck fitting? Get a spray of waste? And do you really know that you emptied the tank ... if the vent is blocked, you probably didn't. If the vents do have filters on them, they could easily be blocking the vent and should be removed.
On a 30 year old boat, the smell could easily be coming from the sanitation hoses, especially if they haven't been replaced in the recent past. That's a nasty job to replace them but the only way you'll eliminate the smell. Hold a rag soaked in hot water around a waste hose ... if it smells when you remove it the hose needs to be replaced.
You need to do some crawling around your boat, open hatches, look everywhere to trace your sanitation lines and find those through hulls and the waste tanks. I'd say have fun, but sounds like you won't.

[K1MGY]

Hello to all and thank you for your questions.

Here is the description of the system from my marine survey report:

The system consists of two 12 volt Jabsco toilets discharging into one plastic holding tank totaling
45 gallons mounted under the sole that can be emptied through a deck service fitting located on
the starboard side midship labeled “Waste” or via 12 volt macerator pump when offshore. This
system meets USCG standards with the overboard discharge valve secured in the closed position

Peggy, I read about your work and am so glad you offered to help! Your skills must have come from a lot of situations like my own! Pity for the author

You wrote "A blocked vent will result in a pressurized system that will prevent flushing and also interfere with pumpout." which reminded me that the most recent pump out attempt yielded very little and was "quirky", that is it flowed, stopped, and then we got a little bit at a time with minutes of nothing at all. I just assumed the tank was empty, but with no tank level gauge, who knows??

The survey report also said:

Replace deteriorated seawater intake hoses for forward and aft heads.

I also have the survey report that was prepared for the previous owner. Here's what it says"

"SANITATION (BLACK WATER)
M.S.D TYPE USCG SYSTEM:
Certification Type: MSD U.S.C.G. Type III. (Holding tanks) with macerator pump, thru hull pump out port
and deck pump out port. Serviceable.
RAW WATER SUPPLY AND CLAMPS:
Black and white sanitation hose and stainless steel hose clamps. Serviceable where sighted"

So my report says one tank and the prior report seems to indicate two tanks!

I'm uncertain how I can trace the lines. Guessing I must tear the boat apart!

Regarding shutting off the sea water intake through hull for the head(s) - I removed the forward head completely - any idea where it is? Maybe the photos will help.

I did discover the strongest evidence of the stench. It appears the macerator pump has a leak (drips). You can see it in the photos. The seacock is closed. The hose to the macerator pump input appears to branch up (to the pump-out I presume) and to another location behind the fibreglass. No idea where it goes from there, but assume to the tank which I can't find yet.

Photos follow:

[K1MGY]

Originally Posted by pcmm

Sorry don't own one but googled the manual....Holk heck its detailed! Wish they were that good for my era of boat!!

PCMM:
Would you please send a link to the manual? I tried but no find for any version better than what i have.

Thank you!

[K1MGY]

Originally Posted by desodave

You need to hope that Peggy Hall responds here ... she is our resident authority in this area. You should have 2 waste tanks, one for each head. Are the heads seawater or fresh water? If the former, you need to find the through hulls for the intakes quickly. If you've "blocked" the line you need to close the through hull or you could soon have a sinking boat problem.

Oh dear! Please see the photographs. Maybe it can be identified from these?

Originally Posted by desodave

It certainly sounds like blocked vents but what's the boat history? Has it been unused for a long time? Strange that both have the same problems unless they've been left full of waste for a long time .

Seems the stench is coming from a leaky macerator pump. The boat sat on the hard for almost a year, and was not well maintained. I'm unsure about the black water tank state when I bought her, but I got her pumped out just following and there was quite a lot removed, so assume they were left filled, sitting (rhymes) on the hard in the hot florida sun. Yuk!

Originally Posted by desodave

What happened when you opened the pumpout deck fitting? Get a spray of waste? And do you really know that you emptied the tank ... if the vent is blocked, you probably didn't.

No drama opening the pumpout fitting. Some drama when I lost concentration whilst holding the pump out hose so it slipped off the opening and I got a little charming spray. Sort of the opposite to what happens when an airline captain is retiring, completes the final landing, and is greeted by a water jet spray from the airport fire crew. In my case, this brown yuk was apparently an initiation.

Originally Posted by desodave

You need to do some crawling around your boat, open hatches, look everywhere to trace your sanitation lines and find those through hulls and the waste tanks. I'd say have fun, but sounds like you won't.

I didn't, but took lots of photos, and managed to discover the macerator leak area. My reward is my regret.

Thank you!

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by K1MGY

PCMM:
Would you please send a link to the manual? I tried but no find for any version better than what i have.

Thank you!

Here is the manual I found online for the Hunter Passage 42

https://sbo.sailboatowners.com/downl...2_77482529.pdf

[K1MGY]

I finally located the holding tank. Photos below.

I cannot find a T valve, so it appears that the only control for overboard macerator flow is by opening the through hull ball valve and engaging the pump. The design sucks, because to service the macerator pump the tank must be emptied. Otherwise (try not to visualize).

Is the vent line as depicted? If so, maybe it can be safely removed and I can flush it with water hose pressure?

The tank seems quite full! I stepped upon it and can hear some sloshing.

Pray for me.

[peghall]

UH-oh....your tank is aluminum, which was common in the '80s, but by the early 90's no longer recommended for sewage holding because urine is so corrosive that it typically turns any metal tank--even 316 stainless--into a colander in an average of about 10 years. This is borne out by the label on the tank showing that it was made by the same company who supplied the origingal for a previous owner in 2002. So '93 must have been one of the last years that Hunter used aluminum before switching to plastic. It doesn't look as if it's been in use anywhere near that long, so it may only have been installed by the most recent PO (who obviously didn't replace any of the hoses--which are in SERIOUS need of replacing!) Not knowing how long it's been in use, it should be replaced with a good quality plastic tank ASAP.

Ronco Plastics Ronco Plastics marine Tanks Ronco Plastics tank drawings is your best source for a tank. They make TOP quality thick-walled (50% thicker than most other mfrs) water and waste tanks for a very reasonable price and have more than 400 shapes and sizes, over 100 of which are non-rectangular, and they install fittings--including diptubes (we'll discuss diptubes later)--in the sizes and locations specified by the customer when they make the tank. There are retailers who sell Ronco tanks, but Ronco sells direct for a much lower price...and they're great to work with. I'll help you spec the fittings where they make sense.

When looking at drawings it's important to know that there is no top or bottom until the fittings go in, and YOU decide where they go. So rotate, flip in any orientation to find the tank that fit your space.

The existing tank will have to be pumped out before removing it...the badly yellowed smaller diameter hose that runs off the port (left) side of the hull appears to the vent...trace it to the hull and look for a thru-hull on the outside of the hull that's smaller than the water and fuel tank vent thru-hulls. There's a good chance that the vent is blocked...if so, the blockage is in that thru-hull. So scrape it out with a screwdriver blade, ice pick--whatever works before attempting to pump out the tank. It's possible there's a second blockage at the vent fitting on the tank--in the fitting and that end of of the vent line. Don't even think of removing the vent line from the tank while it's full. Fortunately there appears to be an inspection port at the forward end of the tank which (hopefully) can be opened to supply the air necessary to make pumping out possible.

As for replacing hoses...and you need to spend the money for top quality

hoses 'cuz cheap hoses will permeate with odor very quickly. Raritan SaniFlex RaritanSaniFlex hose is top rated, has a 10 year warranty against odor permeation and has the added advantage of being so flexible it can be bent almost as tight as a hairpin without kinking, which makes rehosing jobs a whole bunch easier. Defender has 1" and 1.5" for $10-11/ft, which is the best price out there.

--Peggie

[Bowdrie]

In the above pics there appears to be a molded black hose going from the tank thru a cut-out in the fiberglass into the compartment where the seawater strainer is located.
No chafe protection visible, if that hose chafes thru you'll need a gas mask as part of your working attire.
Peg is correct, that aluminum tank is a ticking time bomb.

[K1MGY]

Applause and appreciation to all and a note to Peggy for her great book (which I needed to read immediately, so thanks for making it available through the Kindle format). So helpful!

Managed to locate the vent, but there's no practical way to clear it out so found the highest point of the old corrugated plastic tubing and made a nice slice. So now we have an emergency vent. I know it's good to the tank - don't ask how

Tomorrow AM we will motor over to the pumping station and see if we can now empty this tank!

I'm seriously considering a composting toilet. Playing Mr. Plumber is not my thing.

[peghall]

Originally Posted by K1MGY

I'm seriously considering a composting toilet. Playing Mr. Plumber is not my thing.

You won't have to if you do the necessary work to get the system set up and working correctly. Thanks for buying my book and glad you're already finding it useful!



--Peggie

[desodave]

Re your through hulls ... you'll have to trace your head water intake lines (assuming seawater) to find them, probably nearby under floorboards or a cabinet. I'd looked at a manual online when originally responding , possibly the same one pcmm referred to you ... it will give you a good idea of where to search. By the way, we installed a valve between the macerator and the waste tank in my previous H38 ... makes servicing the macerator a cleaner job. You might want to consider that when replacing your waste tank.
Don't think that the small sewage leak is the only source if your smells. As Peggy said, you would probably be wise to replace the sewage lines while you're at it. If you follow her maintenance recommendations, it will likely give you little trouble in the future. Isn't learning a new boat full of joy !!!

[K1MGY]

Originally Posted by desodave

Isn't learning a new boat full of joy !!!

Getting into the systems (as recently) brings me to a place of "why", as in "why did I buy this hunk of junk?", combined with a great relief (yes, pun) that in conquering this problem, the others will be equally possible to overcome.

Therein is the joy!

"Your attitude determines your altitude. If you think you can't, you won't."

-- Denny Fitch