Abby Sunderland - The Debate

[Noztradamus]

Originally Posted by sabray

comparing solo single handed circumnavigating to driving or walking down the street is nuts. So this will be a little nuts. So far this year 50% of the under 18 solo circumnavigaters have made it back to port.. 100% experienced a knockdown.50% of the boats were abandoned in the Indian ocean.
If I were facing similar odds when I got behind the wheel or walked down the street Id think long and hard before going out my front door

Unless you want to claim Climate Change is producing new conditions, restricting it to this year is giving an artificially small sample size and anomolous results.

One might equally claim that in all history, 20% of American teen solo sailors have wrecked their boat during a circumnavigation, while only 0% of non-American teens have.

[Surveyor]

Originally Posted by Catcruiser

Come on people. Live and let live. This is something this girl wanted to do, so bless her and admire her for her spirit.

AMEN

[Bill Lee]

I've just reviewed the last 80 posts. I'm confounded. Driving in a car is part of daily living. Its pretty hard to avoid that kind of risk in our society. We undertake risk every day. Usually the risk (odds of something amiss actually happening) is very low. That's why most of us get home unscathed. Also, if something happens - the risk of a fatality (the severity of the risk) is lower still. In driving a car, if something happens, we're usually not too far from help, and emergency services. Risk in our daily lives is unavoidable and severe consequences are remote. Turning to intentional risk with grave danger there is an endless list of doing dangerous things in remote places and being the fastest or youngest. I admire the human spirit and the need "to do" "to conquer" and so forth. Maybe 16 isn't too young. I'm not fully set on that... I think we'd all agree that 6 is too young. Somewhere, between 6 and 16 there's a definite wall. Any time I go out (and I power boat in the San Juans, Gulf Islands, and the Broughtons) I check my ditch, bag, spare VHF radio, batts etc.... I check all systems before EVERY trip. I act prudently (the few minutes of checking is a routine and not time consuming). Even the 'tame' Georgia Straight can be dangerous and can kill. So why do posters keep minimizing the danger/risk of the Southern Ocean? Maybe we should all cruise there.... I do find the Watson/Sunderland kids remarkable. From the little I know there are many characteristics of these kids that I want my kids to have. I still wouldn't allow nor finance my kids to do this. We all have dreams - not doing a solo trip at 16 doesn't mean you can't do it at 61 or 19. The only thing being pursued is the 'record' not the experience. make no mistake on that. Cheers,
Bill

[xxuxx]

Originally Posted by David M

So do we keep lowering the solo child age threshold until one dies and then raise the age by one year and then say it is okay for a child at this age to head out on the ocean on a boat alone?

First off David M! Who is we? We should do nothing under the guise of so -called responsibility for protection of another. This decision is for her parents as she was not emancipated from her family. It is people like yourself that are responsible for us losing, one by one, our civil liberties that our fore-fathers fought so hard for. Abby's father is a boatbuilder and sailing instructor. She has thousands of hours of solo sailing under her belt and her parents and only her parents have the right to say yes or no. Not some armchair fair weather forum sailor. What irks me so much are people trying, under the guise of social responsibility, to put an additional law to "protect" others. Its kind of like the police cheif who requests 5 more patrol cars in order to protect the city. If you say NO you will be called irresponsible. When in reality they and the associated expense that comes with them really are not needed. This is how our country has gotton so screwed up. Under the guise of "RESPONSIBILITY" . Both she and her parents knew the risks....they decided to roll the dice.........Thank God we still have the ability to roll the dice.

[hummingway]

One of the interesting things I came across when reading about the risk associated with driving is that it has been getting safer. We drive more miles without an accident and fatality every year. However deaths have been increasing because more people are driving (the article was by a professor at University of Toronto I think). One of the trends that has been identified with human endeavors in general is that as an activity becomes safer more people do it and fatalities go up. I suppose this is what is now happening with circumnavigation.

I wonder about the Sunderland family and their view. Had they accepted the possibility of their daughters death or did they believe that her rescue in the event of trouble was a foregone conclusion? Sixteen year olds so often believe in their own invincibility but I wonder if Abby had considered her death as a possible outcome?

Then there's Crowhurst:
Donald Crowhurst - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[slomotion]

Abby’s effort was a model of responsible risk management compared to some of her successful and highly revered predecessors. Some solo circumnavigators were so delightfully and outrageously crazy that we have no choice but to proclaim them heroes. Of course, success has something to do with it. But:

Sir Robin Knox Johnson: 3 or 4 thousand miles into his solo, nonstop, unassisted circumnavigation, his keel comes loose off the Cape Verde islands and he starts taking on water at an alarming rate. So, he heaves to, goes over the side, and stuffs rope, caulking and other material into the keel joint. I guess he figured he'd just keep an eye on it after that because he then, of course, goes on to sail another 30,000 miles and win the 1968 Sunday Times race. AND, YES, he was in the Southern Ocean in winter in his 32 foot wooden boat with its wobbly and still leaking keel.

Vito Dumas: He left Buenos Aires in June at the beginning of the southern winter in the middle of WW II in his 31' wooden ketch with no self steering and no radio. AND, YES, he was in the Southern Ocean in winter - just about all of it. He made 3 stops, completed the first circumnavigation of Antarctica, rounded the 3 great Capes, and did it all in a remarkable 259 days.

Those guys pegged the "cazy" meter - by comparison, Abby didn't even register.

[xxuxx]

OK guys, some of you are hung up on the driving analogy. Let's forget that one and lets examine a few other area like say mountain climbing, or surfing big waves, or race car driving. All have at least one thing in common. RISK! What some are advocating in a big brother way is protectionism of younger people, not children. Call them teenagers. Some of you out there and you know who you are, use the word "children" like my great aunt Millie. Hasn't anyone out there had enough law-making? The slow erosion of our personal freedom at whatever age? No matter what extreme sport is out there there will be risk. Why should it be up to BIG Brother to determine who can go and when to go and at what age? I for one know that she had the skill set and the abilities to make that decision with her parents approval.. What is right for one may be very wrong for another. Who is to say??? A new law? YUK

[Noztradamus]

Originally Posted by slomotion

Abby’s effort was a model of responsible risk management compared to some of her successful and highly revered predecessors. Some solo circumnavigators were so delightfully and outrageously crazy that we have no choice but to proclaim them heroes. Of course, success has something to do with it. But:

Sir Robin Knox Johnson: 3 or 4 thousand miles into his solo, nonstop, unassisted circumnavigation, his keel comes loose off the Cape Verde islands and he starts taking on water at an alarming rate. So, he heaves to, goes over the side, and stuffs rope, caulking and other material into the keel joint. I guess he figured he'd just keep an eye on it after that because he then, of course, goes on to sail another 30,000 miles and win the 1968 Sunday Times race. AND, YES, he was in the Southern Ocean in winter in his 32 foot wooden boat with its wobbly and still leaking keel.

~~~~~

Those guys pegged the "cazy" meter - by comparison, Abby didn't even register.

Wahca smokin' dude? Robin Konx Johnson left England in June (N.hemi Summer) and returned in April (N.Hemi Spring) . Which means it was Spring-Summer when he was down south.

And if I was making comparisons: Limited experience day-sailor, in recently accquired high tech boat with major technical problems. no shakedown voyage.

Yep Abby is Donald Crowhurst.

[Randy]

Originally Posted by xxuxx

First off David M! Who is we? We should do nothing under the guise of so -called responsibility for protection of another. This decision is for her parents as she was not emancipated from her family. It is people like yourself that are responsible for us losing, one by one, our civil liberties that our fore-fathers fought so hard for. Abby's father is a boatbuilder and sailing instructor. She has thousands of hours of solo sailing under her belt and her parents and only her parents have the right to say yes or no. Not some armchair fair weather forum sailor. What irks me so much are people trying, under the guise of social responsibility, to put an additional law to "protect" others. Its kind of like the police cheif who requests 5 more patrol cars in order to protect the city. If you say NO you will be called irresponsible. When in reality they and the associated expense that comes with them really are not needed. This is how our country has gotton so screwed up. Under the guise of "RESPONSIBILITY" . Both she and her parents knew the risks....they decided to roll the dice.........Thank God we still have the ability to roll the dice.

So you're saying it remained her parents responsiblity to retrieve from her predicament? The rescue and associated expense was not only not needed but another example of 'Big Brother' wielding it's abusive authority?

[slomotion]

Originally Posted by Noztradamus

Wahca smokin' dude? Robin Konx Johnson left England in June (N.hemi Summer) and returned in April (N.Hemi Spring) . Which means it was Spring-Summer when he was down south.

And if I was making comparisons: Limited experience day-sailor, in recently accquired high tech boat with major technical problems. no shakedown voyage.

Yep Abby is Donald Crowhurst.

???? Yes, he left England in June and he was in the Southern Ocean by September which is the southern WINTER. And this is true no matter what you are smoking.

The Donald Crowhurst comparison is outrageous and insulting.

[xxuxx]

Originally Posted by Randy

So you're saying it remained her parents responsiblity to retrieve from her predicament? The rescue and associated expense was not only not needed but another example of 'Big Brother' wielding it's abusive authority?

Whoa boy...you are confused. First off, if you are referring to our coast guard and who should pay for recues? That is our tax dollars at work and anyone especially mariners can partake of their services. If you are referring to Abbies rescue....she was picked up by a fishing boat.....the unwritten law of aiding a disabled sailor at sea.

[TaoJones]

Winter becomes spring in the southern hemisphere on September 21, and on December 21, summer arrives in the southern hemisphere. If Know-Johnston entered the Southern Ocean before September 21, it was still winter, officially. If after September 21, it was spring, officially. He then sailed through the Southern Ocean through the spring and early summer, finally rounding Cape Horn on January 17, 1969, before turning back up through the Atlantic, arriving back in England on April 22, 1969. At the time he rounded Cape Horn, it was just a couple of weeks before the exact middle of summer in the southern hemisphere.

TaoJones

[Noztradamus]

Originally Posted by TaoJones

Winter becomes spring in the southern hemisphere on September 21, and on December 21, summer arrives in the southern hemisphere.

TaoJones

Spring is August through November As Australians measure seasons

[Sandero]

What disturbs me about this effort is not her age, though I think she is probably too you even if she is a great sailor, but the risk involves others getting her out of trouble. This would apply to anyone of any age doing this sort of thing. If you want to live life on the edge and achieve records.. go do it, but don't expect others to come to your rescue.

Now that sounds callous and of course we would come to their rescue, but the deal is that there is a cost to this and it's got to be financial. You take big risks then YOU pay to get rescued. Perhaps these sponsors should be forced to bond this risk.

The commercialization is also rather off putting. Everyone is looking for a buck. Do you hear me sponsors? I'll be sure to see who they are and never buy their products again.

[slomotion]

The Hal Roth book has Knox-Johnson rounding Agulhas on September 4th. Now you can argue about whether that's the Southern Ocean, but he sailed further south from there and it was definitely winter.

Technically, Abby has never been anywhere in the southern hemisphere in winter.

Sadly, I guess I didn't do a good job of making my main point which was supposed to be that Knox-Johnson and others were far more reckless than Abby.