Abby Sunderland - The Debate

[Christian Van H]

Originally Posted by Michael D

One doesn't need to go to college to learn about sleep deprivation. Plenty of information on the internet. REM sleep in cycles and all the rest is not a big mystery.

I must have a strange sense of humor....

[Christian Van H]

Originally Posted by Michael D

Yep she only got half way which is not coincidentally just about half way farther than her detractors. No parents, no government, no TV reporters, no do gooders. and no hired crew.

You're right. The do-gooders are why she's currently around at all...

[slomotion]

Originally Posted by Bash

While it seems to me that every great once in a while a knockdown might be unavoidable, especially in terms of a rogue wave or equipment breakdown, I suspect that the great majority of knockdowns happen for one of three reasons: (1) the helm wasn't paying attention (or maybe too exhausted to pay the wheel proper attention); (2) the boat was carrying too much sail for the conditions; (3) the skipper/helmsperson didn't have enough experience to deal with the conditions.

I've never been knocked down in a cruising boat. But I have come close twice:

1. In the Caribbean on about a 6 hour sail in a 34 foot sloop we were hit by a freak transient gust during a beam reach under full sail in about 15 knots of wind. We went over well past 45 degrees and rounded up. I was wide awake at the helm and there was no warning. I don't know how strong the gust was - probably 30+ knots, but it was not a squall, it only lasted a few seconds, and winds returned to 12 to 15 knots thereafter.

2. Crewing on a 36' sloop off the coast of Maine, running downwind in about 30 knots under a small storm sail with following steep-faced but not breaking 12 to 15 foot waves. The skipper deployed a drogue. It worked great for a while. But then sliding down the back side of a wave, the rudder jammed full right and we turned broadside. We slid sideways up over the crest of the next wave in near knockdown position. I freed the wheel (it was tied off with the rudder amidships) while the skipper cut the drogue away. Fortunately I regained steering control.

I too am not a fan of solo passage making. A sleeping solo sailior in scenario #2 would have gone over at the very least and maybe much worse.

[MarkJ]

So lets say you need you boat delivered somewhere and you're in the bar interviewing delivery captains:

I walk in and tell you I've been sailing since I was 13 never had a knockdown and always shorten sail and would put a drouge out and think knockdoewns are a show of bad seamanship.

And then the next guys walks in: Arrrrrrrr Kockdowns! Plenty a knockdowns! Twice in a day once! Oh arrr rum plenty! Love em!


So you'd even consider him to drive your boat out of a harbour?

One last point is the rogue wave thing for Abby must be discounted as she was knocked down twice... remember? after the first knockdown she was trying to restart the engine when the phone line dropped out? Then had the second one and set off the epirbs?

2 rogues don't make a right...


Instead of mucking around with the engine she should have stopped the boat.

[Bash]

Originally Posted by slomotion

I've never been knocked down in a cruising boat. But I have come close twice:

1. In the Caribbean on about a 6 hour sail in a 34 foot sloop we were hit by a freak transient gust during a beam reach under full sail in about 15 knots of wind. We went over well past 45 degrees and rounded up. I was wide awake at the helm and there was no warning. I don't know how strong the gust was - probably 30+ knots, but it was not a squall, it only lasted a few seconds, and winds returned to 12 to 15 knots thereafter.

This brings up an interesting question: how do we differentiate between rounding up, rounding down, broaching, and a complete knockdown?

(I guess the easy answer is that when the masthead fly is swept away by the wave that done ya wrong, it's a knockdown. Or when your floorboards hit the headliner....)

[Get-a-Life]

MarkJ,

Yes, lets talk about interviewing delivery skippers since you are such an expert.

We did, including getting references from a yacht broker and other clients, did us a lot of good.

Professional delivery skipper on being intructed by us to also hire another crew member as the yacht we purchased did not have a reliable autopilot left your home town Sydney to sail to Hobart.

We were told by him, never had any problems, no knockdowns, heave to when possible to get a rest, no unnecessary risks,etc.

Dumbass, manages to sink our boat off Flinders Island in open water for what ever reason we have never found out. Insurance company refuses (and rightly so) pay because we agreed that the boat would not be sailed single handed offshore.

Get-a-Life

[Mariness]

Get-a-Life I would sue the guy. If he agreed to take on extra crew, that sounds like "breach of contract" to me.
I've no experience to speak of in the knockdown category - hope I never will. I had been under the impression that sometimes things happen that even the Best Sailor in the World is going to have a hard time dealing with. It seems like it would be better (safer) to assume that they are possible even to these good sailors. To claim that it is all a question of skill sounds like overly self-confident sailors going out thinking THEY are in complete control, rather than ceding greater strength to the elements. Better to expect and prepare for a crisis that never comes, than to think "I'm too good, that will never happen to me", KWIM?

[Bill Lee]

Originally Posted by Mariness

Get-a-Life I would sue the guy. If he agreed to take on extra crew, that sounds like "breach of contract" to me.

Start a lawsuit and if you're successful you're only half way there. The other half is getting money out of the dumbass delivery captain. Odds are he's either intentionally judgement proof (assets well protected) or unintentionally judgement proof (poor slob who's got nuthin'). If he was insured - then sue his dumbass. Cheers,
Bill

[mikereed100]

Originally Posted by chrome dome

fixed it for ya buddy..no need to thank me

One good turn deserves another.

[surfingminniwinni]

Originally Posted by Mariness

I've no experience to speak of in the knockdown category - hope I never will. I had been under the impression that sometimes things happen that even the Best Sailor in the World is going to have a hard time dealing with.

Well said Mariness, the problem we have on this forum is that most of the laptop, desktop, armchair and barstool sailors are so much more experienced than the most accomplished sailors in the world. You only have to read the pages of their knowledgable opinions on this debate. They are all very brave, almost heroic in their advice and opinions, especially when their victim is a 16 year old.

As my old school teacher once said, "empty vessels make the most sound"

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Get-a-Life

Insurance company refuses (and rightly so) pay because we agreed that the boat would not be sailed single handed offshore.

Get-a-Life

Yes, you mentioned that story the other day too. Unbelievable. Little chance of getting money out of him if you sued.

But you mentioned you took the philosophical approach and dumped the pain and somehow replaced the boat.

that would not have been easy.


Mark

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Bash

how do we differentiate between rounding up, rounding down, broaching, and a complete knockdown?

Hey Bashy I thought a knockdown was mast in the water, as in the top of the mast. That can't happen with wind alone so a broach etc ain't nor can it be, a knockdown.

When broaching sure we say 'we put the boat on its ear', but I think thats a knee high ear to a knockdowns ear!

Broaching when racing is naughty but its expected to happen. I'll agree with Slomotion on that. But its still poor seamanship because it means the boats been over canvassed and too strong and too shy for the kite.
BTW Never cheer a boat thats just broached... cos you lack of attention my broach your own!
Not just bad luck or whatever, but bad seamanship because in racing losing control can kill people on a boat to windward of you, or your own crew.

Broaching far out in the ocean and/or in poor weather, while solo, at night etc etc is also bad seamanship... even if it is a Knox-Johnson telling the story.

[osirissail]

Hold on a minute - a knockdown does not de-mast a boat unless there is something seriously wrong with the boat and the rigging. And if a knockdown did cause mast failure then the photos would have shown rigging across the deck and the mast and sails alongside the boat. Given that the boat was supposedly gone over by some serious professional riggers the de-masting by knockdown is a very minor possibility.
- - All of this conjecture is based on two photos and nothing from the skipper yet. Maybe we will have to shell out some bucks to buy the book to find out - as soon as she is finished writing it.
- - Besides a pitch pole, which is a major event in which few if any boats can keep their standing rigging; it is also possible that sliding nearly upside down - down the face of a major wave could also rip loose the forestay, mast and shrouds.
- - All of which supports the conjecture that she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. If "they" had just routed her further north around the storm system - or - she had transited the area earlier in the year she could have been like Abby and sail into her home port to waves and cheers. This is all a "should-s, could-a, would-a" type discussion. And as such the discussion is open to all both novice and experienced sailors to share our opinions and experiences in what we "could-s, should-s, would-a" done in a similar situation. Which in my case re-enforces the conviction to not stick my boat and butt in places/situations where either/both could be lost.
- - Bottom line, there is now a 50-50 chance of not making it, if you are 16 yr old trying for a "non-existing world record."

[Sabbatical II]

One of the reasons I like these threads is so that I can trawl through them and learn what I should do if I'm presented with the same situation. In Abby's situation which sounds tough, but not extreme, I thought I'd be trailing a drogue to stop the boat from gaining too much speed while the helm was not manned. Slomotion seems to have been unlucky with a drogue previously. What's the (surefire)answer then?

[Noztradamus]

Originally Posted by osirissail

~~~~~~~
- - Bottom line, there is now a 50-50 chance of not making it, if you are 16 yr old trying for a "non-existing world record."

heh! "There are lies, damned lies and statistics"

But I'd say there is insufficient data.

On the other hand there is now quite good data for: Number of Knockdowns expected for an Australian teen sailing an S & S 34 single-handed non-stop RTW beneath the Great Capes. It's 7

David Dicks: 6
Jesse Martin: 8
Jessica Watson: 7