Britain to Sort out Somalia in 2012!

[hummingway]

Originally Posted by deckofficer

Maybe, maybe not. Had there been any survivors among the pirates that managed to get back to land and give a first hand account as to what happened to them, maybe so. But since a lot of pirates are lost a sea, others would just assume weather and poor seamanship. Could try mass distribution of Kindles programmed to only run the above video, to the villages that the pirates hail from. Just a thought.

It's not the first time that video has been discussed here. As with all pirate discussions the range of opinions run from solving the problem by nuking them to solving it by education and aid to the country.

The fact is Mogadishu is considered to be the most dangerous place on earth. Afraid of being killed by Russian sailors? Maybe ,but probably not more then walking down the streets of Mogadishu at night. There are replacements lined up down the block who will die for the chance to feed their family.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by hummingway

It would seem very strategic but not enough for them to care I guess. I believe in the north they have oil and some semblance of gov't.

Safe would be good.

Yeah, some oil - but offshore not really been explored.......

The Key to "sorting out" Somalia is recognising reality when you see it. Somalia has never been a country in any real sense (lines on a map drawn by Europeans - probably just the bits even Ethiopia didn't want).

If I recall correctly, Somaliland wants full independence and Puntland only wants (and has) autonomy from central Govt. If both of these were recognised as independent states or at least fully autonomous regions then over half the problems of Somalia would be solved - plus would have allies in the region to do stuff that the western armies can't.....with a major advantage the west can never have, people they oppose know they aren't going anywhere. Would even work if they both only got autonomy under a very very loose Federal Govt of Somalia....with a head of State who can't actually do anything - but looks nice on Stamps kinda like the UK Queen.



Amongst other aid / assistance, if both Somaliland and Puntland were given there own Coastguard (Ships and Training) then the whole Piracy problem would be pretty much solved, especially if the west turned a blind eye . Could even add the training of some locals as Marines.....

Neither would become a place that anyone in the West would like to live - and I am sure that there systems of Govt would be heavily religion based, but that was also a stage that the West had to grow out of and took us long enough!........the trick would not to be over optimistic on moving folks from the Bronze age to the middle ages overnight.

For the southern part of Somalia (inc. Mogadishu) I would divide it into chunks based around the Tribes and make them each fully autonomous regions of South Somalia - that in turn is a fully autonomous region of Greater Somalia.....divide and conquer albeit probably won't stop 'em being a mess - but containable.

I would also take the island(s) of Socotra off Yemen and use it as a naval base....Yemen is broke (and falling apart - if it ever was whole in the first place), so would be fairly easy to get a 100 year lease from some Yemeni puppet / muppet leader - maybe in the name of the UN? or Nato or even the EU . a couple of billion invested in that region would also have spin offs to the wider economy.

I'll send David Cameron a link to this thread

[tropicalescape]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

Yeah, some oil - but offshore not really been explored.......

The Key to "sorting out" Somalia is recognising reality when you see it. Somalia has never been a country in any real sense (lines on a map drawn by Europeans - probably just the bits even Ethiopia didn't want).

If I recall correctly, Somaliland wants full independence and Puntland only wants (and has) autonomy from central Govt. If both of these were recognised as independent states or at least fully autonomous regions then over half the problems of Somalia would be solved - plus would have allies in the region to do stuff that the western armies can't.....with a major advantage the west can never have, people they oppose know they aren't going anywhere. Would even work if they both only got autonomy under a very very loose Federal Govt of Somalia....with a head of State who can't actually do anything - but looks nice on Stamps kinda like the UK Queen.



Amongst other aid / assistance, if both Somaliland and Puntland were given there own Coastguard (Ships and Training) then the whole Piracy problem would be pretty much solved, especially if the west turned a blind eye . Could even add the training of some locals as Marines.....

Neither would become a place that anyone in the West would like to live - and I am sure that there systems of Govt would be heavily religion based, but that was also a stage that the West had to grow out of and took us long enough!........the trick would not to be over optimistic on moving folks from the Bronze age to the middle ages overnight.

For the southern part of Somalia (inc. Mogadishu) I would divide it into chunks based around the Tribes and make them each fully autonomous regions of South Somalia - that in turn is a fully autonomous region of Greater Somalia.....divide and conquer albeit probably won't stop 'em being a mess - but containable.

I would also take the island(s) of Socotra off Yemen and use it as a naval base....Yemen is broke (and falling apart - if it ever was whole in the first place), so would be fairly easy to get a 100 year lease from some Yemeni puppet / muppet leader - maybe in the name of the UN? or Nato or even the EU . a couple of billion invested in that region would also have spin offs to the wider economy.

I'll send David Cameron a link to this thread

David you have my vote if you want to try a takeover ,sounds as if you have it all figured out ....I dont need much of a kick back for my support maybe a few hundred miles of beach front property and some oil drilling concessions ....DVC

[hummingway]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

Yeah, some oil - but offshore not really been explored.......

The Key to "sorting out" Somalia is recognising reality when you see it. Somalia has never been a country in any real sense (lines on a map drawn by Europeans - probably just the bits even Ethiopia didn't want).

If I recall correctly, Somaliland wants full independence and Puntland only wants (and has) autonomy from central Govt. If both of these were recognised as independent states or at least fully autonomous regions then over half the problems of Somalia would be solved - plus would have allies in the region to do stuff that the western armies can't.....with a major advantage the west can never have, people they oppose know they aren't going anywhere. Would even work if they both only got autonomy under a very very loose Federal Govt of Somalia....with a head of State who can't actually do anything - but looks nice on Stamps kinda like the UK Queen.



Amongst other aid / assistance, if both Somaliland and Puntland were given there own Coastguard (Ships and Training) then the whole Piracy problem would be pretty much solved, especially if the west turned a blind eye . Could even add the training of some locals as Marines.....

Neither would become a place that anyone in the West would like to live - and I am sure that there systems of Govt would be heavily religion based, but that was also a stage that the West had to grow out of and took us long enough!........the trick would not to be over optimistic on moving folks from the Bronze age to the middle ages overnight.

For the southern part of Somalia (inc. Mogadishu) I would divide it into chunks based around the Tribes and make them each fully autonomous regions of South Somalia - that in turn is a fully autonomous region of Greater Somalia.....divide and conquer albeit probably won't stop 'em being a mess - but containable.

I would also take the island(s) of Socotra off Yemen and use it as a naval base....Yemen is broke (and falling apart - if it ever was whole in the first place), so would be fairly easy to get a 100 year lease from some Yemeni puppet / muppet leader - maybe in the name of the UN? or Nato or even the EU . a couple of billion invested in that region would also have spin offs to the wider economy.

I'll send David Cameron a link to this thread

You may have just bought the next election for Mr. Cameron!

I think what you've written makes sense. I believe Puntland has received some support from the west already, however insipid. Still good luck figuring out how's in charge! "Here then, you, how would you like to be in charge of the country? Well, yes, I know you've no experience but really how hard is it. Stand around looking important, clear your throat once and while and we'll take care of the details."

[atoll]

as in most conflicts it mainly all comes down to money and control of reasorces .

one of the reasons cameroon is looking into sorting out somalia is their is a lot of money coming from the gulf states funding what we call fundamentalism in the region.

now libya is no longer a player somalia makes a great training ground for those that want to regain control of mineral resources that western companies developed in the region.

hard to say whats going to happen,but i doubt its going to be altruism......

[delmarrey]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

Well, according to David Cameron (English PM) .

"The Prime Minister's decision to tackle the Somalia quagmire is seen by some as being fuelled by the success of the Libyan venture"

Britain's new year resolution: intervene in Somalia - Africa - World - The Independent

Good luck with that one ............but even if (yet another) failed war, might be a side benefit to folks wanting to pass through the area by boat more safely.


But my bet is all words and no action (and no money!) and simply part of his recent (Dog Whistle) announcement that all Muslims, Jews and non-beleivers are to be driven into the sea from whence they came......all in the name of cheeses (like in the good old days ).

"the UK is a Christian country and we should not be afraid to say so"

BBC News - David Cameron on Christianity - views

Seems to not realise that only a minority of people in Britain are practising Christians and over half of the population sees itself as non-religious (as per the latest British Social Attitudes survey).....it's why we have stuff like electricity. and don't burn people on bonfires anymore.

Politics and religion - and with a hint of guns

Blessed Are the Peacemakers (Matthew 5:9)

A “peacemaker” is one who seeks to bring harmony and reconciliation between those who are estranged. Peacemaking seeks to produce right relationships between persons. everyone hates those who sow discord and stir up trouble (Proverbs 6:19). Vet every community and every local church and many homes have people who thrive on divisions and conflict and unrest.

Peacemakers are needed in our world. Holding grudges and evil speaking are common sources of conflict among everyone. Busybodies and slanderers and disagreeable persons can cause havoc in a community.

Peacemakers are needed among nations. Christians should face the war question squarely, doing all they can to prevent war. We are to seek to live at peace with all persons (Romans 12:18). Our faith requires that we love our neighbors and pray for our enemies!

[atoll]

Originally Posted by delmarrey

Blessed Are the Peacemakers (Matthew 5:9)

A “peacemaker” is one who seeks to bring harmony and reconciliation between those who are estranged. Peacemaking seeks to produce right relationships between persons. everyone hates those who sow discord and stir up trouble (Proverbs 6:19). Vet every community and every local church and many homes have people who thrive on divisions and conflict and unrest.

Peacemakers are needed in our world. Holding grudges and evil speaking are common sources of conflict among everyone. Busybodies and slanderers and disagreeable persons can cause havoc in a community.

Peacemakers are needed among nations. Christians should face the war question squarely, doing all they can to prevent war. We are to seek to live at peace with all persons (Romans 12:18). Our faith requires that we love our neighbors and pray for our enemies!

yup!!! thats pretty much how the old world conquerd the new world!!!

perhaps we need to find a new approach!

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by atoll

yup!!! thats pretty much how the old world conquerd the new world!!!

perhaps we need to find a new approach!

Yeah... pretty sure the Inca's and a few others would have appreciated that 'New Approach' a few hundred years back...
But then the 'Convert or Die Policy' is hard to beat... Win Win or wot....

[stevensc]

I spent quite a bit of time in Somalia in the late 70s and probably 15 trips throughout the country till the late 80s You can't imagine how much aid from the US, Europe and the UK has been pumped in there over the years. The CDC Comonwealth Development Corporation set up a large sugar project in the near Kismayu, cleared the bush leveled the fields, irrigation equipment, tractors, housing on and on even the sugar milling and processing factory. Many millions of Dollars worth. There are othe projects throughout the country from fish and lobster processing plants, farms of all types, to factories and roads. It all has gone to waste along with all of the innocent lives lost in battles between the different factions. Who is fault who knows I don't see it getting better for a long long time.
I must say the Somalis I met and they were many from managers to mechanics were very nice people to me, I also will say they are probably the most cruel I have ever seen to their animals, and to each other.
I hope their lot improves
Steve W

[atoll]

Originally Posted by stevensc

I spent quite a bit of time in Somalia in the late 70s and probably 15 trips throughout the country till the late 80s You can't imagine how much aid from the US, Europe and the UK has been pumped in there over the years. The CDC Comonwealth Development Corporation set up a large sugar project in the near Kismayu, cleared the bush leveled the fields, irrigation equipment, tractors, housing on and on even the sugar milling and processing factory. Many millions of Dollars worth. There are othe projects throughout the country from fish and lobster processing plants, farms of all types, to factories and roads. It all has gone to waste along with all of the innocent lives lost in battles between the different factions. Who is fault who knows I don't see it getting better for a long long time.
I must say the Somalis I met and they were many from managers to mechanics were very nice people to me, I also will say they are probably the most cruel I have ever seen to their animals, and to each other.
I hope their lot improves
Steve W

angola was a similar scenario and now is booming,so maybe there is still hope!

just wish that we the west started treating arms dealers the same way we would drug dealers .....

[tropicalescape]

Originally Posted by stevensc

I spent quite a bit of time in Somalia in the late 70s and probably 15 trips throughout the country till the late 80s You can't imagine how much aid from the US, Europe and the UK has been pumped in there over the years. The CDC Comonwealth Development Corporation set up a large sugar project in the near Kismayu, cleared the bush leveled the fields, irrigation equipment, tractors, housing on and on even the sugar milling and processing factory. Many millions of Dollars worth. There are othe projects throughout the country from fish and lobster processing plants, farms of all types, to factories and roads. It all has gone to waste along with all of the innocent lives lost in battles between the different factions. Who is fault who knows I don't see it getting better for a long long time.
I must say the Somalis I met and they were many from managers to mechanics were very nice people to me, I also will say they are probably the most cruel I have ever seen to their animals, and to each other.
I hope their lot improves
Steve W

Friend of mine was there and said the same .. I asked why they couldnt get it together and he said"they do fine during the day but at night the war lords would bring in the Khat and it made them crazy and old resentments would surface" dont know if thats it or not but thats what he was told by his commanders(marine corp)...DVC

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by atoll

angola was a similar scenario and now is booming,so maybe there is still hope!

just wish that we the west started treating arms dealers the same way we would drug dealers .....

That'd kill off the last of British Industry...
mind it'd save on all those foriegn junkets for the Royals and the I'm so In Crowd at Whitehall.....

[atoll]

Originally Posted by tropicalescape

Friend of mine was there and said the same .. I asked why they couldnt get it together and he said"they do fine during the day but at night the war lords would bring in the Khat and it made them crazy and old resentments would surface" dont know if thats it or not but thats what he was told by his commanders(marine corp)...DVC

dunno about that as khat generally makes people pretty mellow,think it is more the "khat economy". the stuff is prety addictive psychologically.

it definitely screwed up yemen with peoples dependence on it.
no money for food,but money for khat..........

[Dkdoyle]

This reminds me of the Chevy chase movie when he was a weapons dealer. They do it for money. Somebody is taking their money and selling them things like RPGs and guns. Bet they keep most of their money in banks too.

Bottom line if it is not profitable then they will stop doing it. Feel bad for the poor people.

[stevensc]

Originally Posted by atoll

angola was a similar scenario and now is booming,so maybe there is still hope!

just wish that we the west started treating arms dealers the same way we would drug dealers .....

I spent lots of time in Angola too, remember: Angola has LOTS of oil and diamonds

I'm good with deep sixing the arms dealer too.
Steve W