Britain to Sort out Somalia in 2012!

[stevensuf]

what about a no sail zone? say 20-50 miles off somalias coast, much easier to enforce, stop the traffic in/out to authorised vessels only. Or send them loads of junk food shops a big pile of marijuana and lots of big screen tvs with playstations!

[Patient]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

You and others make the fundamental mistake that armed force can solve complex problems. It almost never succeeds. It may result in damping down the activities but they just spring up again once military attention switches elsewhere. Remember all that happens in the face of concerted western military activity is these guys throw away their AK 47 s and claim there are fishermen. What is " your" military doing to do , mow down seemingly innocent "fishermen".

It's always the case that, particularly in the US, but in all western countries that a defined " enemy" must be identified. The fact that these groupings are actually clan based and in effort involve whole societies seems to escape you. Simply killing an active pirate causes him to be replaced by another member of the clan.

Successful conflict resolution has shown that dealing with the underlying issues has to be tackled first. That reduces the incentive and pressure to enter illegal activities.

It's a sad thing that western states prepared to spends millions on naval activity but not spend it on the country itself.

Dave

Bingo!

The real problem here is that the current Somalian government is practically non-existent. Military intervention in this case would be nothing-less than nation building and we all know what happens then. There is no group to "Help", no government body to "Assist" and no army to "Train". Its lawless.

I posted an article here last year about Predator drones being deployed in the area with some glimmer of hope that they would be used to help, well they have been active, but not to stabilize the region, instead to what experts assume, "Obliterate" terrorist cells rather than pirates.

I mean its nice that the UK has stated a new agenda in pacifying the region, but as GoBoatingNow has pointed out, the question still remains, who exactly to you hand off the country to afterwards?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by stevensuf

what about a no sail zone? say 20-50 miles off somalias coast, much easier to enforce, stop the traffic in/out to authorised vessels only. Or send them loads of junk food shops a big pile of marijuana and lots of big screen tvs with playstations!

I think that they're likely very well stocked with Kif already.. and lets face it.. the thought of charging down on ships and capturing them sounds quite romantic.. is that not why Pirates of the Caribbean and all the movies before were so popular... real manly swashbucking stuff... well... at least before Johnny Depp...
Add the religous factor and its a 'Holy Crusade' as well...
Bit like the 'Kill a Gook for God' mentality that lived in the sixties... and morphed into variations since..
For folk to understand their motivation they need to understand these folk are not poor in the Western sense of no job.. living on benefits in subsidised housing on maybe 1 decent meal a day...
These people are grindingly poor... you have to live amongst them to really see it... not wander down their streets then go back to your comparative 5* accomodation..
No... shooting them won't work... has not in Afghanistan for over 250yrs... the suggestion that it could in Somalia is just another demonstration of Western arrogance and ignorance...
I could get into reasons certain things don't happen then likely get banned... but it would be a pointless ban as no one's listening...

[sailorboy1]

I'm just not really interested in the political and a social issues of nation building in this discussion at all! If someone (other than the US) wants to occupy the country and try go ahead and waste your money.

All I care about as a boater is the pirate issue. You can not really convince me that making the activity of pirating unrewarding in relation to the risk will make more people want to be pirates.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

I'm just not really interested in the political and a social issues of nation building in this discussion at all! If someone (other than the US) wants to occupy the country and try go ahead and waste your money.

All I care about as a boater is the pirate issue. You can not really convince me that making the activity of pirating unrewarding in relation to the risk will make more people want to be pirates.

Well it did not work with Capone, Bonney and Clyde, Bugsy, Dillenger... Blah, Blah, Blah... one mans villian is another man's Hero...
Or are you saying that a life of malnutrition, constant hunger pains, watching your family starve to death around you and no one cares.. not your wealthy people... and not really anyone else's... outa sight, outa mind...
This is preferable to death you often wish for anyway.. ??
at least one is dying trying...
Get It...??
These aren't some Wall St broker standing on a ledge feeling sorry for himself mopping his tears and going 'Oh woe is me... I am undone..' before he jumps..
The thought of subsidised housing being to depressing...

[sailorboy1]

I "get" it. But trying to convince me to fix a problem that the Somalia people don't appear to really want to fix is a waste of time. Have they asked anyone to to "fix" the problem?

So in the end we are left with the pirates! And the Robin Hood type argument sounds great as long as you aren't the one being robbed and killed and instead are on the booty reward end of the issue.

[boatman61]

Do what people have been doing in cities and area's for time immemorial... don't go there... it'll die a natural death...
Look at it as a natural hazard.. like the mosquito's of the Canadian tundra region that suck you dry in hours... can't get rid of them.. so one avoids them..
As for the commercial interests.. its their problem not mine and I'm sorry but the Suez route/whole Arbabian route is as appealing now as when I passed through in '64... its a **** hole with nothing to offer a cruiser other than a short cut to the Med..
Bit like the folk who head for the Med down the French canals to the Med rather than the Biscay..
Is the weather really why folk choose the Suez rather than the Cape... or is it that old terror... The Dark Continent... Black Africa...

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by H.S.Hemingway

hei david,

well Somaliland defacto is a country by it's own. The TFG (Transitional Federal Goverment in Mogadishu) has no power whatsoever of that state. The only thing missing today is the recognition by the international community of Somaliland. But there is no political will of western countries to do so. They are much much better off then the rest of Somalia and indeed there is no (or almost no piracy, am not 100% sure) in Somaliland as the country and it's institutions are working to an acceptable standard and the ppl is following the laws.

If the international community would recognize Somaliland it would help to stabilize the region as the ppl in Puntland would want something similar, an autonomy in a federal state.

I think that Somaliland will be recognised as an independent state this year, or at least the process to do so will be nailed down. In that region the precedent has already been set with Eritrea (breaking off from Ethiopia).

And if independence for Puntland was OK'd as a future possibility then IMO sooner of later it will happen......not a quick fix (there ain't any!), but at least an endgame on the horizon.

The Somalis are sick and tired of the situation but there is no political will in the country and more importantly outside the country to stabilize the situation. Ethiopia and Kenya are not very keen in a strong Muslim Somalia. They rather are ok with the situation now. Ethiopia would fear that a united Somalia would request the predominant Somali region in Ethiopia and may would face a war with them. So keep them down and all is fine.

I can see the sense in that, but if done right can have a weak (rump) Somalia. and a small one!

To answer your post

to run a CG which will be effective in fighting piracy is only possible with massive international help, because there is no budget for that.

Just an example, a couple of years ago 80% of the medical care was provided by foreign humanitarian organizations.

The TFG needs to tackle much more urgent problems then the piracy, at the moment we have the biggest nutritional crisis in the region in southern Somalia since the famous 1984 Ethiopian famine.

We will have pirates as long as the ppl are starving to death in that part of the world.

Once the people is having a place they can actually live and are not struggling every day to survive the piracy will cease to exist by itself...

I appreciate that the solution to Piracy (and the far worse onshore stuff) is economic development - at least to the point where folk are able to feed themselves.......but I still think that a Somali CG would be one way of helping towards that by creating a mini and legal economic benefit onshore - short term by remittances home from crew and longer term from onshore facilities, even if vessels initially based elsewhere for security reasons. Would also allow the fisheries to be managed - to advantage of the Somalis.

and a cost effective way to boot rather than maintaining an enhanced Naval presence (I appreciate that Western Politicos not known for looking at either the overall picture or longterm ). Won't fix everything of course (and initially will likely need to be dealing with some folks who have interests on both sides of the Piracy industry!).......but will help solve the bit that may one day affect me .

In any event if can remove 2/3rd's of the Somali problems (allowing Somaliland and Puntland to help themselves) then the rest of Somali becomes more manageable - plus have some allies on the ground, to do some of the hands on stuff (even if only to defend own borders / suppress problems within). Guns and bullets alone don't solve problems - but nonetheless a useful item to have in the toolbox.

[Sand crab]

So it's 2012. Hows the sorting out thing going?

[H.S.Hemingway]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

So it's 2012. Hows the sorting out thing going?

Well, i think the Brits are not doing anything with their own hands
maybe they have some agreement with Kenya.If you google Kenya military intervention in Somalia you will get a picture what is going on right now!

to some of the comments above, well if you don't wanna invest some money in the try to get some peace to Somalia fine, but then don't expect to have a safe cruising ground near Somalia, but be in alert all over the Indian ocean.

There have been attacks of Somali pirates as far as the channel of Mozambique, Tanzania, Seychelles, and one cargo ship was attacked closer to the shore of India then to Somalia.

And this scenario, if nothing is done for the ppl there will continue and it will likely outrun your career as a cruiser. so say bye bye to the whole of east Africa, which by the way is nice, unspoiled cruising ground. Just came back from Pemba island a month ago. Is different and you are absolutely alone at anchor

I think i have said enough
cheers

[captain58sailin]

I was a seaman on a container ship that sailed into Mogadishu just after the fighting had slowed down in the 90s, and we spent 3 weeks anchored just offshore, and the fishing was great, and the weather was nice. The lack of any infrastructure was the biggest detriment to dealing with the different problems. No centralized form of leadership of any form.

[Mr B]

I believe Piracy on the high seas used to carry a death sentence world wide,
Unless the different Countrys have changed their laws,

My Family is dying from starvation, I cant even obtain food for my family by selling my soul.

I can become a Pirate,
as there is nothing else anyway,

One Highjacked ship, Divided by Nine people or so,
Should produce approx $100,000-00 USD each,

My whole village will live like Kings for the rest of our lives,

Then greed takes over, Such easy money, Piracy Rules, YEEEEAAAAAAHHHH.

Those very rich unarmed foreigners sailing past like ducks in a Turkey shoot,

And no one has stepped up to the plate to stop us, Hahahahaha

I want to be a Pirate, Money, and lots of it, for doing nothing more than a boat trip, and grabbing a few Hostages,

Then a nice cruisy boat trip back home with the hostages,

As the Pirates village would also actually benefit from the piracy,
the whole village would in some way or another support Piracy,

Their all related in some way or another, so it then becomes a family related effort,

Nice easy Money,

[captain58sailin]

Mr. B, I believe that may be a slight over simplification of the situation. A lot of the piracy that is being perpetrated there, is being sponsored or performed by terrorists, who use the money to sponsor acts of terrorism. Using the system against itself. The near total anarchy in the region makes it an ideal place to perform these acts. To be sure the locals are being used and probably some are even willing participants, however, I would wager that more than a few of the locals families are hostages themselves, and are being coerced into this program.

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by captain58sailin

Mr. B, I believe that may be a slight over simplification of the situation. A lot of the piracy that is being perpetrated there, is being sponsored or performed by terrorists, who use the money to sponsor acts of terrorism. Using the system against itself. The near total anarchy in the region makes it an ideal place to perform these acts. To be sure the locals are being used and probably some are even willing participants, however, I would wager that more than a few of the locals families are hostages themselves, and are being coerced into this program.

Its definately over simplified,
Who is supplying the boats and armaments for these penniless starving peasants,
It certainly doesnt grow wild in the desert,

Its amazing how watching your family being butchered with machetes can convince you to work as a Pirate,

There are a lot of scenerio's.

Just avoid the area, No people going there, No Pirates, Supply and demand, Hahahahaha

[hummingway]

Originally Posted by Mr B

Its definately over simplified,
Who is supplying the boats and armaments for these penniless starving peasants,
It certainly doesnt grow wild in the desert,

Its amazing how watching your family being butchered with machetes can convince you to work as a Pirate,

There are a lot of scenerio's.

Just avoid the area, No people going there, No Pirates, Supply and demand, Hahahahaha

Actually the arms are pretty much growing on trees down there. They may be short of food but not guns. There are rumours of organized groups getting involved but that's a small part of the story. They had the boats because they were fishermen and they've had the guns as a result of disastrous civil war.