Bullying on the Waterway ( Sunset Lake , Miami Beach)

[Fortytwo]

Is there a reason you posted the forum rules and then decided not to be courteous?

[hellosailor]

Canuck, you might also want to bear in mind that Miami, Miami Beach, all of Florida has a reputation for being very politically, ah, experienced.

I wouldn't be surprised if any boat rallying with you on July 4th (bad choice, most Colonials have other plans centering on blowing up things or immolating meat) was met with a very professional white-glove check to make sure they were in full compliance with all applicable safety regulations. Including posting waste management and oil disposal placards. Field sobriety check and sniffing dogs optional and extra--but you should anticipate that kind of professional response whenever you beard a dragon.

You might want to have vessels get a voluntary USCG Aux courtesy inspection between now and then--which at least shows they've nominally met the rules and won't have any gross surprises. Anchor lights, DAY SHAPES...if you're not all in 100% strict compliance, odds are some summonses will be handed out if someone really wants you to be gone.

[redcobra]

Originally Posted by rowingdude

as you will note, he states his "location" as Washington D.C; which any true American will tell you is "corruption central".

That's truly uncalled for.

[redcobra]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Canuck, you might also want to bear in mind that Miami, Miami Beach, all of Florida has a reputation for being very politically, ah, experienced.

I wouldn't be surprised if any boat rallying with you on July 4th (bad choice, most Colonials have other plans centering on blowing up things or immolating meat) was met with a very professional white-glove check to make sure they were in full compliance with all applicable safety regulations. Including posting waste management and oil disposal placards. Field sobriety check and sniffing dogs optional and extra--but you should anticipate that kind of professional response whenever you beard a dragon.

You might want to have vessels get a voluntary USCG Aux courtesy inspection between now and then--which at least shows they've nominally met the rules and won't have any gross surprises. Anchor lights, DAY SHAPES...if you're not all in 100% strict compliance, odds are some summonses will be handed out if someone really wants you to be gone.

Yep, I wouldn't want to be there. There are going to be a lot of boat inspections and there is always someway to find something wrong. If there are non-US boats I wouldn't be suprised if Homeland Security shows up.

[rowingdude]

Originally Posted by Sam Plan B

Be Courteous!
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I would like to point out Mr. Poetry, that neither of us are being very respectful

[Blue Crab]

The rhyming was funny the first time. After that, not so much.

[zeehag]

do you believe the war is gonna have a positive outcome?? sounds like what went on in sd when glorietta bay(federal) anchorage was being closed down (by locals)-- the penthouse folks didnt like looking out over THEIR bay and seeing boats anchored in it--LOL made complaints every day. oh well-mebbe you might have better fortune than did the sd boaters. gooood luck.

[Butler]

This is a bit tangental but...
The part of all this that I appreciate is the issue with over-zealous and poorly justfied police activity. Irrespective of response, Canucksailor is justified in his concern. (though the cops were nice!) We have been seeing increased police activity where we are (the largest shipping port on the West Coast) and then there is the recent thread regarding police activity on the Hudson. We do see this clearly as stemming from a reaction to 911 and it really is evidence of a concern many Americans have had all along about the slippery slope of increased "security measures" that were instituted as a result of that horrible incident.

Seems to me that here in the port of L.A., particulary as pertains to USCG activity, that things have gotten more relaxed since leadership has changed and we have moved further from 911 though our local gendarmes don't quite get it yet and can still overreact. I also know that this is not the case in a lot of places and unfortunately some agencies in some places have stayed with a more agressive way of doing business. This doesn't pertain to the cops in this case but my point is that we may be called upon to be as firm as we can be with authorities when they board and make sure that we find effective ways to address the issue with our elected officials when we see abuse.
It's up to us to hold the line. Bravo Canucksailor.

Who made Plan B homeroom monitor? ;~>

[canucksailor]

Butler - I don't believe that the police are the problem. They are at the end of the food chain here, they have to do what they are told to do, whether they like it or not.
It's the political process that allows someone who is a major political donor - which Karlton is - to call in markers based on the money he has or will, invest in the process. That is the problem, both in the US and, thank God to a lesser extent, in Canada. We don't permit corporate donations, and private donations are limited to $1000. if I remember correctly.
We need to make it clear to politicians that, while we realize they need funding - that such funding doesn't give the donor the right to call the shots.
Rather, the donor should be funding the politician's stated aims and philosophy - and not seeking any specific ends that s/he wants to achieve.
My wish here is of course somewhat Pollyannish, but nonetheless, it's worthy.
People such as Karlton are the problem as they pollute the system.

[hellosailor]

Canuck?
"People such as Karlton are the problem as they pollute the system. "
I don't think you grasp it. Florida has their own systems, and it is only the middle class who are "polluting" the system.

The way it workls on the gold coast in Florida?

If you're rich, you buy what you want. The rich came here prior to the 1950's when it was the Wild West with sunlight and beaches and copious cheap labor to support their lifestyle.
If you're poor, you're too busy trying to be exploited at minimum wage to worry about this stuff. You do what the rich say, or you're out of a job. You don't make waves.
If you're the middle class? The snowbirds? The damned hoipoloi?! The folks who can afford boats but can't afford to dock them in proper marinas? You're just screwing it up for everyone. You've raised the rents, you'bve asked for higher taxes to provide more services, which pisses off the poor, and you're meddling in politics and asking for things that the rich don't want interfered with. As Mark Twain said about teaching pigs to sing, you're just going to annoy the pig.

Whatever outsiders may think of it--there IS a system in Florida, especially on the Gold Coast, and it works for the majority of the folks who do vote there. (Typically about 15-20% of the registered voters vote, and of course those snowbirds and tourists can't vote anyhow.) They vote, they own it, things are the way they want it.

Think of it as a foreign country. As the recently appointed Roman Catholic Bishop for Miami said last year, literally! "I was so happy to be appointed to a position so close to the United States". Although in his case, he was referring to Little Habana, and the way he said it got a good laugh out of everyone who heard him.

You get your passport stamped once when you enter the US, and twice more when you leave it and enter other places, like the Gold Coast of Florida. Despite Mr. Lincoln's thoughts on the matter, we're not all about one uniform place, there are many sovereign states still to be found here.

Think how you would feel, if damned Yankees came up to Canada and started demanding ketchup for the "french fries". Sacre bleu! Next they'll want low-fat poutin!

Now, to the various moderators and anyone who thinks this is political or rude...IT ISN'T. That's just the way things are done on the Gold Coast, and many well-intentioned folks from other places just don't seem to get it. There IS a system, the natives like it fine, and that's their right. They do, after all, own it. There are other systems, other places, other ways to do things. You go cruising, and sooner or later, you realize you're not in Kansas anymore. (And if you wind up in the Phillipines, Korea, or China, you might better hide ToTo, too.)

[Lexam]

Am I odd? I think one of the main reasons to buy a shore front property is to SEE boats. Must be my twisted mid-western mind.

[canucksailor]

Hello sailor - we already provide ketchup to go with the fries - and vinegar too!
As for Karlton, and maybe I'm being a naive Canuck here, but I thought the laws were for everyone - Floridians included.

p.s. no such thing as low fat poutine!

[Lifegoal2sail]

Im probably going to be bitched at here, but I have to say this is all kind of funny from an outsiders point of view. When i asked about how people could afford to sail full time I got a wide range of responses. One being that people do so to get away from this very type of situation. Yet it seems when some of the sailing people get together to fight something you resort to the very same tactics of the people you say you don't want to be around. So to me who's really the good guy in the end? I feel the right thing to have done would have been contact the police chief first. Only after you got a response should have taken this to the mayors. And then after you heard from the should you have went to the papers. To ASSume that one is in bed with someone else with out real proof puts you in no better stance on ethics then the man you've accused.
There really is no disrespect meant, just an observation.
Bran

[Khagan1227]

Originally Posted by canucksailor

My further response to the Chief of Police follows. This has been cc'd to the mayor's office, the City Attorney, and also the Ethics Commission.

Dear Mr. Noriega - my intent was not to aggravate you, and I'm sorry both that you are incensed at my remarks and that you feel disinclined to discuss this matter with me. I understand that it's been a difficult week for you, given the events you've had to deal with. I'm sure you don't need this on top of everything else.

However, the facts of the matter are that your marine police have, on more than one occasion and subsequent to Karlton's complaining, come out to 'encourage' boaters who are legally anchored in Miami Beach, to move. That is fact - it is NOT slanderous, libelous or irresponsible.
In fact, what IS irresponsible in my opinion is the waste of police resources - manpower, time and equipment - that are used in pandering to Mr. Karlton's personal problems with boaters engaging in a legal pastime. If I were a taxpayer in Miami Beach, I would most certainly have issues with all of that. I also have issues with the infringement on people's rights to engage in a legal activity which is inclusive in what is happening here.

You happen to be the boss. You set the tone, and if what I saw on Memorial Day weekend was representative, then you are doing a good job and your men reflect that. All I've tried to do here is to bring out a situation that needs attending to. I'm astonished by the hostility of your response to my concerns, which represent the concerns of the many other boaters who have stopped in Miami Beach and been confronted by Karlton. I would have thought your concern would be to resolve the situation, to make it clear that Karlton does not have special privileges with the MB Police. You haven't said that.

I don't know just who dispatched your officers. If it was a desk officer or staffer responding to a call and there was no influence behind it, please just say so. I can accept that and admit that my assertions were in error. In fact, I'd be quite pleased to hear that, since it would be a far simpler situation to resolve. Instead, you've taken huge umbrage to my remarks and that leads me to wonder if, indeed, there isn't some complicity, some pandering towards Karlton's concerns. What I want to hear is that it isn't MBPD policy to be at Karlton's every whim when he's upset over someone engaged in a legal practice. I want to hear that boaters don't need to be concerned that they will have to deal with a police presence while engaged in doing something they have every right to do. That's hardly a lot to ask, or so I would have thought.

For your information, I have deliberately not posted my original email to you while awaiting your response, out of respect for your office. I had hoped that I would be able to report back to the hundreds of cruisers who are following this issue that the MB Police had assured me that we would no longer be 'gently harassed', as one of them put it, by the police. As I said, I have no criticisms of your men, who were most polite, but the fact is, what they are doing is still not right. They know it, I know it, and you know it.

I note that you have not indicated that you wish to speak to the couple who were harassed by Mr. Karlton with loud music and a bright spotlight until well into the night in May, 2011. Is this how you intend to "monitor the activity", as regards "threats that have been made"? They felt threatened by Karlton's actions, and have said as much to me. Do you plan to respond to that?

Since you have indicated that you have no intention of communicating with me, I will forward this correspondence - and yours - to those you have suggested, along with my remarks on your response. I am sorry that you have not chosen to deal with this more amicably. It was never my intent to cause disagreement here and most certainly not with you.

Sincerely,

W. Moran

p.s. my remark about your email was based on the consideration that a Chief's email just might not be public, given that there are people who would abuse it. I simply didn't see it online anywhere. There was no slight intended.

While I support your right to protest Mr. Karlton and his actions, I also would like to takea moment to have you view the world from a different point of view, that of the Police Officers involved. Your perception of their job is perhaps skewed by the nation of your birth, I don't know. The Police involved are obviously aware that Mr. Karlton has been a problem and were most likely trying to get you to move your boat to DIFFUSE the problem before one arise. At least that what the Police in my locals try to do. Sure, (perhaps) the Police received a call from Mr. Karlton, and from past experience, they know EXACTLY what means Mr. Karlton will use to encourage you and others to move.

Thus, in my humble opinion, they WERE doing their job by asking you to move your boat and avoid a confrontation with Mr. Karlton.

Additionally, it may well have been one of Mr. Karlton's neighbors that initiated the request for the police, because they have been subjected to his nonsense in the past. You have NO WAY of knowing, and are mearily speculating who made the call and the motives of the Police Department.

Thus, your accusation of illegal behavior ny the Police Department, while well intended, was just that, an accusation of unethical conduct, and if I were the Chief of Police, I would be offended as well.

Further, and this is directed at those who would encourage "rafting" and other acts of annoyance, I would ask you to put yourselves in the shoes of Mr. Karlton's neighbors and ask you to reconsider. His neighbors have no "dog in this fight" and most likely just want to be left alone. If anything, parking 100 boats in front of his house and raising cane will most likely push his neighbors to his side of the fence.

Keith

[Astrid]

If anything, parking 100 boats in front of his house and raising cane will most likely push his neighbors to his side of the fence.

Excellent point: you don't want innocent bystanders caught in the tug of war. They might take the wrong side.