Dismasted by an aircraft carrier

[MatthLE]

Gents,

At least one persons comments indicate little to no at sea experience. I have been to sea on a carrier for a few years, and a sailboat for more than I care to count.

Regs require all to maintain a lookout. There can be no doubt the carrier did, and the sailboat did not for a long period of time. The carrier is awesomely big from the water even if unchanging bearing of bow on and only at very long distances can it be obscured by swells. Radar as a power saving measure can be focused directionally and intermittent transmit.

Was it night?
What was visibility?
What was the waveheight?

Solo Sailboat from a carrier is damn difficult to see in great conditions.

Bottom line, sailboat failed to maintain a watch, you can take that one to any court. Yes that is a rant AGAINST solo ocean sailing.

Respectfully
Lem

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by MatthLE

Bottom line, sailboat failed to maintain a watch, you can take that one to any court. Yes that is a rant AGAINST solo ocean sailing.
Respectfully
Lem

Lem, you could also argue that the carrier failed to maintain a watch, least one that was effective. The Captain will have some explaining to do.

[double u]

"...you can take that one to any court..."
would have been an interesting case had the sailboat been a suicide bomber with 10tons of explosives...(remember Aden?)

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by tp12

It’s not academic at all. The point of the regulation is to make both skippers aware of the fact that they both need to take avoiding action regardless of who is the stand on vessel.

I think it’s self evident that firstly the sailboat didn’t take any action to avoid collision whilst the carrier tried.

But my point is no sailboat given an option should be anywhere near where there Is a risk of collision with a carrier !!! This has nothing to do with COLRegs. Common sense says stay the F out of the way.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Lem, you could also argue that the carrier failed to maintain a watch, least one that was effective. The Captain will have some explaining to do.

They detected the sailing boat. Which was more then the sailing boat did.

The sailor was an idiot to end up in that situation

[double u]

..as I said:
for a warship Colregs are one thing,
secure perimeter another...
(AFAIK USS Cole was "in the right"...)

[double u]

as I see it this is the case of 1 idiot on a sailboat vs. how-many nincompoops on a carrier

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by garyfdl

Originally Posted by Siberian Sea View
"Aircraft carriers take half the ocean to turn and the other half to stop."



You're comparing the maneuverability of a 10,000 (give or take) ton 'tin can' to a 42,500 ton aircraft carrier?

It's not a comparison - it's a vantage point. The destroyer in "plane guard" is 1000 yds astern of the carrier, there to pick up any ejected aircrew. The battle group does not always travel into the wind, so when a launch/land cycle comes up, the carrier makes a turn into the wind. This is done very quickly, such that the destroyer actually has to turn away to clear the carrier's path, then follow around trying to catch up to the carrier that is now going a fair bit faster than the destroyer's 30 kts. So no, carriers do not take half the ocean to turn or stop.

[Martkimwat]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I think it’s self evident that firstly the sailboat didn’t take any action to avoid collision whilst the carrier tried.

But my point is no sailboat given an option should be anywhere near where there Is a risk of collision with a carrier !!! This has nothing to do with COLRegs. Common sense says stay the F out of the way.

Sometimes that is easier said than done. I sail in the Solent and my boat is based in Portsmouth. Coming out of Portsmouth trying to head southeast, I am often confronted with a vessel coming up the Eastern approaches, which could either be coming in to Portsmouth (fine, I am over to the West so clear of the Portsmouth channel) or continuing up the eastern approaches to Southampton (in which case I am standing in to danger) do I turn to port to cross the Portsmouth channel, but risking crossing the path of the vessel if it turns into Portsmouth or do I continue straight on? Sometimes my local knowledge of the vessels helps but not always. I have on occasion wasted 10 minutes sailing pointlessly westwards (the wrong direction) and often then conflicting with the frequent ferries and hovercraft ferries, only to find the vessel has eventually turned to starboard into the Portsmouth channel. Colregs say that vessels should make their intentions clear, but hardly any of them give the required audible warning, and often despite my having class B AIS, I have noted that they are not painting on AIS despite all other vessels around them painting. I have queried this with the vessels and with the port authorities who both say that the vessel is indeed transmitting. my point here is you cannot rely on AIS to show you all large vessels despite them obviously being required to have it because of their size and tonnage. Sometimes you end up in a situation where due to your speed, traffic density AND having eyes in the back of your head, you have to hope that everyone knows the colregs, including yourself, and comply with them to the best of your ability and hope that others do the same. The Solent is one of the most densely populated stretches of water on the planet, and no you cannot ban small vessels. it is also the home to around 100,000 small vessels and 100s of sailing venues like Cowes, The Hamble and many distinguished sailing clubs like the Royal Yacht Squadron and not to mention the annual round the Island race in which upto 2,000 sailing vessels take part.

[garyfdl]

Originally Posted by double u

"...you can take that one to any court..."
would have been an interesting case had the sailboat been a suicide bomber with 10tons of explosives...

10 tons, 20,000 lbs, on a 10 meter (32') sailboat?

I'm no expert on displacement vs payload, but...

Pretty sure that makes it a submarine.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Martkimwat

Sometimes that is easier said than done. I sail in the Solent and my boat is based in Portsmouth. Coming out of Portsmouth trying to head southeast, I am often confronted with a vessel coming up the Eastern approaches, which could either be coming in to Portsmouth (fine, I am over to the West so clear of the Portsmouth channel) or continuing up the eastern approaches to Southampton (in which case I am standing in to danger) do I turn to port to cross the Portsmouth channel, but risking crossing the path of the vessel if it turns into Portsmouth or do I continue straight on? Sometimes my local knowledge of the vessels helps but not always. I have on occasion wasted 10 minutes sailing pointlessly westwards (the wrong direction) and often then conflicting with the frequent ferries and hovercraft ferries, only to find the vessel has eventually turned to starboard into the Portsmouth channel. Colregs say that vessels should make their intentions clear, but hardly any of them give the required audible warning, and often despite my having class B AIS, I have noted that they are not painting on AIS despite all other vessels around them painting. I have queried this with the vessels and with the port authorities who both say that the vessel is indeed transmitting. my point here is you cannot rely on AIS to show you all large vessels despite them obviously being required to have it because of their size and tonnage. Sometimes you end up in a situation where due to your speed, traffic density AND having eyes in the back of your head, you have to hope that everyone knows the colregs, including yourself, and comply with them to the best of your ability and hope that others do the same. The Solent is one of the most densely populated stretches of water on the planet, and no you cannot ban small vessels. it is also the home to around 100,000 small vessels and 100s of sailing venues like Cowes, The Hamble and many distinguished sailing clubs like the Royal Yacht Squadron and not to mention the annual round the Island race in which upto 2,000 sailing vessels take part.

I agree situations can occur why you have to rely on the rules. Cruising the Dover TSS is a case in point

But this wasn’t that. This was relatively open water

[garyfdl]

Originally Posted by Chris31415

Let’s go to the video tape…

Aerial footage of the USS Gerald R Ford (CVN 78) conducting high speed turns

https://youtu.be/ob2HMH3GnJw

First, the 'de Gaulle' is not the 'Ford'.

Second, there is no way a carrier out turns a destroyer, short of the destroyer being dead in the water.

Third, while impressive, the video proves nothing.

[garyfdl]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

carriers do not take half the ocean to turn or stop.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the poster who made that comment was being a bit facetious.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by garyfdl

First, the 'de Gaulle' is not the 'Ford'.
So what?
Second, there is no way a carrier out turns a destroyer, short of the destroyer being dead in the water.
No-one suggested that. My point was that carriers are quite nimble and don't take up half the ocean in turning or stopping.
Third, while impressive, the video proves nothing.

You really don't have much to contribute to this discussion, do you?

[jtsailjt]

I definitely think the sailor was at fault. For an aircraft carrier to sneak up on him he must have been down below for much longer than it takes to make a cup of tea or use the head, etc. If he has anything close to a proper lookout he would at least have known that the carrier was nearby and remained at his helm until it was no longer a possible threat. So he was definitely at fault.

The carrier also should have seen the sailboat. True that a fiberglass boat without a good radar reflector doesn’t make much of a radar target but an aircraft carrier has technology way more powerful than we do on our recreational vessels. They also have several hundred crew and at least a few good pairs of binoculars they could use to watch for vessels such as ours. So the crew of the carrier was also at fault.

Not that it necessarily applies to this incident but if the carrier was traveling at 20-30 knots and turning, staying out of its way might be quite difficult even if you are keeping a diligent watch. But if that were the case, the sailboat skipper should have hailed the carrier on 16 and announced his presence and inquired about the carriers intentions.