Freed Somali Pirates 'Probably Died' - Russian Source

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by SabreKai

Lancaster . I see it at least a couple of times a summer,
Sabre

That would be fabulous!

Originally Posted by Hidro

I've never understood why sailing ships are not allowed to carry weapons. Only the crooks can carry guns

The merchant ships are not allowed to carry guns as there are some ports where they are totally forbidden (ask PanamaJames!).

However I think that will be the end point. and I think it will be reached failry soon.


A machine gun on merchant ships would stop this immediately.

But here is an intelligent article giving reasons for and against

Misguided Restraint Against Somali Pirates Will Only Escalate Attacks

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by speakeasy

Man, you are a blood-thristy lot! Ever been in combat? Ever kill anyone except in a video game? .

No, and I would hate to be in combat or, God forbid, kill anyone (and never have, even in a video game). But I would hate still much more to be begging for my own life and the lives of my loved ones from a Somali pirate holding my family at gunpoint, threatening to kill us all if someone doesn't come up with some millions of dollars for them and their "investors".

And I would hate still much more to establish a pattern of behavior that makes piracy a profitable and attractive profession so that more and more mariners will be in that position.

Originally Posted by speakeasy

First off, punishment does not lead to rehabilitation. People don't come out of prison repentant and determined not to ever sin again. They come out with many new skills and buddies, an angry chip on their shoulder, and the intention to never again be caught. Sociologists' studies in the 50's, 60's, and 70's proved the only way to get offenders against the legal, cultural and social rules to conform was to give them, or make sure they have, a stake in the system. I'm sure that will stick in the craw of the vengance crowd. .

Who said anything about rehabilitation? Or vengeance? We were talking about deterrence, a very different thing. Directly deterring those pirates who have been caught in the act (dead pirates will definitely not commit any more acts of piracy, and imprisoned pirates will not commit piracy at least while they're in prison), and indirectly deterring other potential pirates, by making piracy less attractive.

Originally Posted by speakeasy

And btw, we should remember that what we read, see or hear from all and any official sources isn't necessarily, or even likely to be true. All of them are consummate spinmeisters of reality. They say "watch this hand closely" as they do their secret deeds with the other. There is no proof that the Ruskies didn't set 'em adrift and use them for gunnery practice, then (nudge nudge wink wink) say we lost sight of them.

Piracy is an ancient and traditional problem. It is predation by violent armed people against defenseless mariners and unarmed merchant ships, and God help us, even yachts. There is only one known solution to it -- likewise, an ancient and traditional one, namely defense against the predators by the use of force. If the "Ruskies" machine-gunned the pirates, I don't blame them. Good for them.

You won't see Russian ships being attacked anymore, contrary to the bluster of the pirates. Their business model does not call for engaging in combat, which increases risks and costs to the pirates. Their business model requires soft targets, ships owned by weenies who prefer to pay than fight, and who can't get it through their heads that that course of action just makes piracy profitable and keeps the pirates coming back for more.

There is simply no solution to this other than a forcible defense.

[Eleven]

From the foot of Page 5

Fishwife is quoted: "I've served in the forces, my husband, they tell me, died for his country. You who want war, prosecute it with your bodies, else never cry let loose the dogs of war."
P. replies:
"If ever there was an actual war to be fought this would be it. I would not only join but donate 25% of my total saving to the cause. If I had the backing of a military branch I would act as decoy on my yacht,and murder all who approached. Without losing a minute of sound peaceful sleep."

Unfortunately P. the 'civilised' nations out there would arrest you for murder and lock you away for life, or five or six years anyway. You have already broken the western law by inciting violence. Maybe Obama and the UK's new Government will actually do something useful, certainly in international waters, and this will help the recruitment to the navies of both to get invloved in a war with a purpose. All it will need is a United Nations resolution in full support. FAT CHANCE.

[Fishman_Tx]

They need to bring back the "Q-ship" program. Let a contractor like Blackwater or some such handle it.
Q-ship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Eleven]

Absolutely, a set of Fast Motor Boat with 'platoon' armaments and a Mother Ship in support.
A couple of these pilotless drones to overview the waters, check on convoys and individual big ships. Authority to engage and destroy.
Obama, you can lead the way.
I wonder what the Chandlers would say an hour after their kidnap. Shoot and try to miss us OR pay the Ransom. 500 hostages are being held in Somalia.
An English vessel has been released today following a ransom payment. The 22 crew on board were not mentioned on the BBC News.

[Mariness]

Originally Posted by Lost Horizons

When a "human being" will fire an automatic weapon at you with intention to kill, it may change your perspective. It is very easy to be civilized and judge others from the comfort and security of your home.

I don't have a problem with someone who is being fired upon or attacked defending themselves as needed. I would do what was necessary in defense.
I do take issue with comments I have seen posted (coming from people in the "comfort and security of their homes") reveling in the death of these individuals. A dead body is not something to be celebrated, no matter whose it is. It may be necessary to kill in some situations, but if you enjoy it - that's where there's a problem.

And to a different post: The reason "we" should help restabilize Somalia is because (generations back, but even so) it was "we," the Western world, who helped destabilize it in the first place.
And because it is the right thing to do to help someone who needs it.

[alaskamountainman]

"It may be necessary to kill in some situations, but if you enjoy it - that's where there's a problem."

Nobody on the forum (to my knowledge) has killed anyone, much less said they enjoyed it. What people have said is that they are glad to see something finally being done about the pirate problem, which includes the action taken by the Russians. Other solutions suggested here would seem to encourage more of what we have. I contend each merchant vessel be armed with trained individuals who can muster during an attack and eliminate the pirates' boats at a distance. That type of action would insure the safety of ship and crew, which is a goal on which we should all agree.

Self defense isn't about calling the cops.

[Fishman_Tx]

Got news, Alaska. There's at least one...
It's something you will never forget, ever.
You never want to find out how it changes you, but only if you have a heart in you. If you don't have a heart to begin with, you'll enjoy the "power trip". Ask any Nam or Iraq/Afghan vet that's seen what I'm talking about.

[osirissail]

Back to the OP theme - Don't believe everything the news media "conjectures" as fact. If you were a pirate and set free in your home waters with a "tracking beacon" given to you by the "opposition" do you think you would keep that "tracking beacon" very long? You would throw it into the sea. These pirates navigated their way out to that location just fine. They stayed on station until they got a target. I find it highly likely they can also find their way back to Somalia just fine.

[Sam Plan B]

Perhaps I am just having an attack of humanity…. but celebrating the death of Somali pirates (ex-fishermen) who to date have only been guilty of trying to feed their families by illegal means after their livelihoods have been removed … by equally illegal means…. seems a bit harsh.

Sooner or later the touchy feely, pitty the pirate, whinging will end with innocent cruising people or merchant seamen being murdered. How do you know they are ex-fishermen and not run of the mill thieving punks? And feeding their families by stealing from other people with families to feed, how exactly does that deserve compassion? And how exactly did the cruising community (or shipping companies) remove the fishing livelihood? Clearly, piracy pays better than fishing as long as the ransoms are paid. Piracy is less hazardous than fishing as long as the at-sea community does not make it more hazardous.

Piracy is more than punks in a boats. It is an economic system. It requires the tacit concent or active participation of the local government. Hostiges must be held somewhere. Ship must be anchored somewhere. The transfer of a multi-million dollar ransom must be facilitated. If other governments are not willing or able to protect vessels bearing their national flag other steps must be taken. A good solution to the problem of piracy along the Somali coast would be to equip a tramp steamer as a privateer disguised to cruise in international waters. It could funded by marine insurance companies. When the pirate boats appear they are promptly dispatched. Bonuses are paid at so much a head.

[MarkJ]

Here is a newish article, 6 days ago, where the Chandlers priates were interviewed.

“It is getting very difficult to keep them,” said Ali Gedow, speaking with his face half-covered by a scarf to disguise himself. “If we can’t keep them, we will have to give up. We’re not prepared to put our lives at risk.”

The pirates blame the Chandlers’ lack of wealth for the failure of negotiations with third parties for a ransom. More importantly, they say, they want to “get on with their lives”, an apparent reference to a future hijacking attempt.

One of them said that once he received his share of any ransom, he would give up piracy and emigrate to Europe. According to the men, a number of people have offered to pay, including the Chandlers’ own family and the Somali interim government, but the sum proposed was “very little”. They claimed their monthly expenditure was more than £50,000, much of which went to qat traders.

Somali Islamists vow to free British hostages from pirates - Times Online

[UWOA]

Originally Posted by Eleven

There are some 400 to 500 hostages in Somalia.
It's hard not to rejoice at getting even but in a 'proper' war there is the Geneva Convention.
If we claim to be civilised that is the minimum standard 'we' should operate to.
Solving some of the issues in Somalia will solve the piracy. We already put enough money into the country to resolve most of the issues, we just need to be doing it in the right way.
We have the technology to delivery payloads to targets. Can't we fill 'old boats' with food, water filters, shelters. Delivered direct to the people with the message that these will only be repeated on certain conditions.
It won't cost us any more, it might save many lives. And the payload can't be transfered to a Swiss Bank Account.

They are illegal combatants and not entitled to the protections of the Geneva Convention. Summary execution is actually allowed in such cases.

[osirissail]

I disagree - they are not illegal combatants - they are common thieves and criminals as pirates have always been throughout the ages. Pirates whinning about the "cost of living" to keep their hostages is pathetically humorous. Kind of like the armed burglar complaining about the increase in the price of bullets.
- - You end piracy the same ways it was done throughout history, make it too expensive in terms of money and lives to continue in that business. Active defensive capabilities on freighters will rapidly make the "costs" associated with being a pirate too much and it will cease.

[CSY Man]

It may be necessary to kill in some situations, but if you enjoy it - that's where there's a problem.

I certainly would enjoy killing in some situations: To defend myself and my family's life.
I would feel a deep satisfaction afterwards, belive you me.

If the Russian's killed the pirates, they did the right thing. Too much scum on this earth, we need the cleaning up. Well done Russia, please come back for more.

[UWOA]

Originally Posted by osirissail

I disagree - they are not illegal combatants - they are common thieves and criminals as pirates have always been throughout the ages. Pirates whinning about the "cost of living" to keep their hostages is pathetically humorous. Kind of like the armed burglar complaining about the increase in the price of bullets.
- - You end piracy the same ways it was done throughout history, make it too expensive in terms of money and lives to continue in that business. Active defensive capabilities on freighters will rapidly make the "costs" associated with being a pirate too much and it will cease.

You can disagree all you want, the language of international law, however, is quite specific when it comes to dealing with non-state actors who contravene international conventions: they are illegal combatants -- the same as Osama Bin Laden -- and do not fall under the Geneva Convention when they attack foreign flagged vessels.

You might want to take a course in international law so you are conversant on the topic ....