FWC Derelict Enforcement Marathon

[Captain Bill]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Who's refusing and in what context?

My bet is the people who won't touch it are not being hired by the owner with indemnity provided by the owner.

If the marina moves it and it sinks or is crushed by the travel lift, they will be responsible for any damage which on an old wooden boat can be incredibly expensive to fix.

If the owner paid the salvage company and signed a waiver that there is a good chance of damage and the salvage company won't be held responsible, I'm betting they take the job.

I saw one of the travel lift owners last night. He's afraid that the boat will crumble if he tries to lift it. This might leave him with a boat in pieces in his lift slip, rendering it unusable until the pieces are cleaned up, so he doesn't want to take the chance. I can't really blame him. He runs a working yard, not a salvage company.

[Training Wheels]

Carenot, impressive, well done!

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by CareKnot

Hello All,

I would like to take a moment to beg your forgiveness, since it seems impossible to have an opinion in this thread, offer a solution or even to agree on the facts - without someone being offended. But if you choose to get offended, it's your choice. Far be it from me to deprive you of your druthers.

This thread is a real eye-opener. The proverbial 'they' say it takes all kinds. If you are looking for any kind in particular, it seems all are well represented herein. So I would like to take another moment to commend those participants in this thread that have advocated a more circumspect investigation of the real issues than the (paid) media is willing to share or the knee-jerk crowd is willing to acknowledge. My hat is off to those that endorse compassion and choose to err on the side of caution and common sense. You have my respect and gratitude.

Concerning the OP, the consensus opinion of the participating membership is that there is none. This thread is filled with views of even-handed wisdom, applicable common sense solutions, examples of humble teach-ability, "hang 'em high" rally cries and even memorable and winning witticisms; all of the above are certainly demonstrated. But without consensus - or even practical discussion - this thread would best serve as check list of who you might wish to avoid inviting to your next sundowner, lest some poor soul become offended.

Since I was a child, the world has been turned on it's head. What was once called good is now evil and vice versa. Up is now down; in is now out; free is anything but - in every sense of the word. Free is now very expensive and has no semblance of liberty left to be associated with it. So it is worth remembering the old adage; "Text, without a context, is but a pretext to a proof text." Nowhere is that more relevant than some of the 'proof texts' offered in the thread; in as much as their 'proof' is analogous to my aforementioned 'free'. It's not.

Here are my questions, concerns and a few responses to objections raise by various members. Let me start with the political elements of this discussion first, in that they tend to stray furthest from the facts. (Yes I'm being brave. This is my second glass of red.)

Since the issues addressed herein are based in the US, the great state of Florida, specific locals and cruising and live-aboard community (of which I was a long-time resident) the political (the activities associated with the governance) and civics (the rights and duties of citizenship) elements I respond to will be based within that context. What makes this a difficult area to understand and to find consensus, is the overlap of citizen's duties in their role of self-governance and the tenuous balance between constitutional limitations and natural tendency toward over-reach of governance as it applies to citizens rights, natural resources and capital concerns.

My view is simple. We the People are screwing We the People and we seem to like it.

1. Political Compass Headings - Liberal, Conservative, Authoritarian, Libertarian. Sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_compass, https://www.politicalcompass.org/
   
2. Political Labels
   We have all been instructed in the inadequacies of political labels. Labels over-simplify; they obfuscate; they distort and deceive. Yet there is not a political discussion that takes place without the use of political labels applied in a manner designed to facilitate prevarication.
   
   Example: Socialism in mainstream US politics is repeatedly aligned with liberalism. However, a quick review of major socialist movements of the last century demonstrate a great number that evolved into of ultra-conservative authoritarian regimes exemplified by such notable movements as the National Socialist German Workers' Party (Nazi Party).
   
   I doubt that very many 'liberals' in the US that would condone the death tolls that have been documented in socialist and communist states like those that occurred in the German holocaust or the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin, in the People's Republic of China under Mao Zedongmor or in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge (somewhere between 21 million to over 100 million non-combatants depending on who is doing the counting). Still, there we go with political labels that belie the reality of facts for the sake of political convenience and expediency.
   
   Repeatedly, polls have revealed those persons that are regularly labeled as radical left or right, actually hold pretty mainstream and 'middle of the road' political views. Both the left and right endorse some form of social programs for the needy and they both endorse capitalism as an economic system to varying degrees. So most political labeling that exceeds those bounds can safely be categorized as hyperbole (unicorn lovers included).
   
   Granted business people are slanted to favor business interests, social activists favor social 'justice', artsy people favor supporting the Arts, etc. In short, people like people like themselves, but people aren't really all that different. Big surprise right?
3. Political realities
   We have been dealing problems like these since the foundation of the Republic. Lots has changed over the years, but some things never change and human nature is one of those things.
   
   One could argue that our form of government is based upon the observations of some very wise people. They designed a government to limit the natural tendencies of man; tendencies toward corruption, excess, greed and abuse. So they designed a government to place limits on human nature, especially regarding how one human may treat another or one group of humans may treat another group of humans - as to manner they impinge or abrogate another human's rights under the color of law. This is something else that has changed in my lifetime and not all for the better.
   
   There is an academic paper entitled "Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens" by Martin Gilens, professor of politics at Princeton University and Benjamin I. Page, the Gordon S. Fulcher professor of decision making at Northwestern University. The lay person might best internalize the salient points by reading any of several summaries such as, "The US is not a democracy but an oligarchy, study concludes"
   
   It came as no surprise that the uber-rich get what they want. The big surprise was that the median citizen, even when banded together in large like-minded groups, have a statistical probability of about zero when it comes to affecting public policy decisions. So feel free to argue politics all you want. Your opinions (unless you are among the uber-rich - not just the wealthy) are worth about as much as that Baby Ruth floating in the mooring field next to your yacht.
4. Localities and Jurisdictions
   To those people that criticize concerns and suggestions voiced by people that don't live in Monroe County or the particular Keys or Harbors mentioned in the OP, I would remind you that the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission is a State agency and the laws in question are State Laws. Further I would remind you that every cruising sailor has a deep and abiding concern regarding ANY state or local agency that assumes jurisdiction over what has traditionally been the purview of Federal agencies enforcing Maritime law according to international treaties.
   
   I find this type of colloquial we'uns vs you'uns small-mindedness damaging to the cruising community and akin to political labeling. It simply isn't accurate. We as cruising sailors are by definition and action, less bound to geographic abstractions and more citizens of the world. I can only hope that some of the more open-minded explorers among us rubs off a bit on you - for the sake of your betterment.
5. Enforcement
   Here we come round to the 'Leave the Poor Souls Alone' argument vs. the 'Hang 'em High!' and 'they get whatever they deserve', crowd.
   
   Show of hands! How many of you think that the answer to enforcement lay somewhere in between? Good. Glad to hear it. Because when it comes to enforcement, this country has literally gone over the top.
   
   Congratulation fellow citizens! USA #1! We now incarcerate more of our citizens than any Despotic Dictatorship, Communist Regime or Religious Oligarchy in the entire world! The 'Evil Axis' has got nothing on us!
   
   From Wikipedia: "Excludes federal prisoners. In October 2013, the incarceration rate of the United States of America was the highest in the world, at 716 per 100,000 of the national population. While the United States represents about 4.4 percent of the world's population, it houses around 22 percent of the world's prisoners." - United States incarceration rate
   
   
   
   The sad fact is that as a nation, we have incentive-ized incarceration. There are a seemingly an unending number of federal grants and programs to dole money out to law enforcement and regulatory agencies. We have also privatized incarceration where the very people that should be in the prisons now own and operate them - with very limited oversight I might add. Why? So 'Law & Order' candidates can justify founding and funding more agencies and more legislation with harsher penalties that require - wait for it...
   
   ...more taxes to fund them! It is a self-perpetuating revenue stream and the citizens are the sponsors.
6. Solutions
   So yeah, since you are the ones paying for it, let's start jailing boat owners that suffer mental disorders, addictions, devastating financial losses or damage to their boats and live in deplorable conditions. But wouldn't it be more fun to just string 'em up and bury them in their boat? We might be able to recover the costs by salvaging the lead, charging admission to their public executions and charge for rides on the bulldozers that push the dirt over their boats.
   
   Only the imagination limits our ability to solve this problem. There have been a number of good ones put forth already. If the state really wanted to solve the problem, they would indemnify the tow operators and sanction salvage operations. There would be no shortage of applicants.
   
   Dozers crushing them is good and I personally like bonfires and load music. How about an annual festival? Make the tourists pay for it. We could call it the FWC Derelict Enforcement Marathon and Boat Crushing Festival. I vote we book the Stones.
   
   How about we tow the boats that still float overseas. For instance, there are sailors in Haiti that sail home-built wooden boats with trees for masts and tarps and burlap bags for sails. They will gladly take all we can deliver. Coincidentally, I don't think they have very many anchor exclusion zones in front of their high-rise condos. Just saying...

So this is what happens when I decide to read an entire thread during a sundowner with some pastries and a little Merlot. Ok, I'm cut off.

I doubt anyone woulD get offended if you were just trying to make a brief point...oh...wait

[CareKnot]

I'm landlocked and watching from the docks. Gotta have a little fun.

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

I doubt anyone woulD get offended if you were just trying to make a brief point...oh...wait

[denverd0n]

What your graph does not show is that while incarceration rates have gone up drastically, violent crime rates have gone down almost as drastically...



Cause and effect? Maybe. Or maybe not. But when you point to incarceration rates and automatically assume this is necessarily a bad thing, you are only looking at half the picture.

[rwidman]

This past Sunday and the Sunday before I watched a local salvage guy remove two derelict sailboats. Apparently the authorities figured out who owned them and threatened fines if they weren't removed.

This guy had a hydraulic trailer and towed the boats to the boat ramp and pulled them up on the trailer. He did this just for the value of the lead in the keels, no charge to the owners.

He complained to me that the authorities won't let him just salvage derelict boats without the owner's permission so when the owner can't be found, the boats just sit and break apart.

So now the local "ghost fleet" is down to two, three if you count the one that's sunk in the middle of the channel and marked by a rubber buoy.

[Cottontop]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

What your graph does not show is that while incarceration rates have gone up drastically, violent crime rates have gone down almost as drastically...



Cause and effect? Maybe. Or maybe not. But when you point to incarceration rates and automatically assume this is necessarily a bad thing, you are only looking at half the picture.

Maybe not. The spike in incarceration rate is due almost entirely to two things: the elimination of parole in the federal system and mandatory jail time for drug offenses.

[LakeSuperior]

Originally Posted by Cottontop

Maybe not. The spike in incarceration rate is due almost entirely to two things: the elimination of parole in the federal system and mandatory jail time for drug offenses.

Additionally, a good share of the decrease in the crime rate can be attributed to Roe versus Wade.

[CareKnot]

Hi denverd0n, You are of course, correct - if you suppose the 'whole picture' will become apparent when we incarcerate everyone (except the uber-rich, of course). Then violent crime will become a statistical null and we will all be happy. However, I suppose this is acceptable when compared to more developed socialist oligarchies where they just execute everyone with whom they take issue.

So when we discover that 'We' are no longer 'the People' and that the other 'We' that has supplanted 'the People', in both governance and civics, incarcerates more of our citizenry than the most despotic and repressive regimes on the entire planet, when does this mythical 'whole picture' start coming into focus for you?

"Good day, sir. May I see your papers please?"
"What's this all about officer? What papers?"
"We have determined that you are at risk of becoming a risk."
"I have... You have determined... What?!!"
"Sir, we are only trying to help. You are being detained for your own protection. If you keep resisting sir, we will be forced to bzzzz crackle..."
"AAAArrrggggh! STOP! What are you doing?"
"Stop resisting sir. Bzzzzz crackle pop!"
"AAAArrrggggh! Oh God! I think I'm having a heart attack! Oh! Oh! [unintelligable]..."
"Sir, you are being detained on suspicion of Anchoring a Disabled Sailing Vessel in an Open Anchorage. In the state of Florida, all disabled sailing vessels must be able to fully navigate on its own before being allowed to anchor or be moored. Pursuant to our investigation, you will be held on Suspicion of High Obotery on the Low Seas and Stick Pilfering in concert with Unauthorized Scavenging, Mopery with Intent to Creep, Suspicion of Skulking and Resisting Compulsory Assistance, a classless felony punishable by 2 to 20 years incarceration in a State Sponsored Private Prison and the destruction of your boat and other personal property.
"What?"
"Stop resisting sir. Bzzzzz crackle pop!"
"AAAArrrggggh! Oh God! Oh! Oh! [unintelligable]..."
"My partners and I are going to put you in a life jacket and restraints for your own protection and transport you to a holding facility. Medical evaluation will be provided when you are booked into the county detention center."
"Oh God! [unintelligable]..."
"Yes sir. Thank you sir. We appreciate your cooperation."

Btw, what does incarcerating the otherwise homeless population that are living in derelict or abandoned boats, have to do with violent crime? These are, statistically speaking, mostly non-violent petty offenders, not violent felons. Some aren't guilty of anything but imitating a hermit crab!

denverd0n, we already have plenty of laws to deal with violent offenders. Forget violent. Hell, we even have laws for locking up non-offenders. Fish & Wildlife seems so ironic in this context.

DISCLAIMER: No animals were injured during the fabrication of these otherwise vegetarian events. Any resemblance to the truth is purely coincidental. You can't handle the truth. Or broccoli and cheese sauce for that matter.

Originally Posted by denverd0n

What your graph does not show is that while incarceration rates have gone up drastically, violent crime rates have gone down almost as drastically...

Cause and effect? Maybe. Or maybe not. But when you point to incarceration rates and automatically assume this is necessarily a bad thing, you are only looking at half the picture.

[CareKnot]

Hi,

Just curious, but when does an abandoned boat become abandoned under Florida law? Sounds like never and that can't be right. I've been away for a few years now.

Originally Posted by rwidman

This past Sunday and the Sunday before I watched a local salvage guy remove two derelict sailboats. Apparently the authorities figured out who owned them and threatened fines if they weren't removed.

This guy had a hydraulic trailer and towed the boats to the boat ramp and pulled them up on the trailer. He did this just for the value of the lead in the keels, no charge to the owners.

He complained to me that the authorities won't let him just salvage derelict boats without the owner's permission so when the owner can't be found, the boats just sit and break apart.

So now the local "ghost fleet" is down to two, three if you count the one that's sunk in the middle of the channel and marked by a rubber buoy.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by CareKnot

Hi,

Just curious, but when does an abandoned boat become abandoned under Florida law? Sounds like never and that can't be right. I've been away for a few years now.

My post was about Charleston, SC so I can't answer your question. In both of the cases I mentioned, the authorities told the boat owners that they would be fined if they didn't move their boats so they surrendered them to the salvage guy. One was drifting about and had hit a bridge, the other was grounded and sunk next to the public boat ramp.

I have to think that a boat drifting back and forth up and down a river and a sunken boat would qualify as abandoned as well as one blown out of the water and onto a marsh.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by sailorchic34

My comments were more to indicate that some folks who were well with the rules before, now through no fault of their own are outside the rules. If you want to live aboard in a 29 foot sailboat in the bay area, marina picking are going to be hard to come by.

No one expects to be down and out in BKH or Richardson Bay. Yet it happens. I know one 68 year old woman living on the hook, doing boat detailing to make ends meet. She use to co-own a restaurant till her partner died. Now she's stuck with not a whole lotta options and no where to go. There but for the grace of god go I.

LOL, if the down and outs had shekels, there would not be down and out.

Yes, some people are poor. Yet, why would they expect to be allowed to anchor an old boat in the public waterway and live on it, most likely dumping their sewage and garbage overboard? They wouldn't be allowed to park a trailer on public property and do the same.

It's not really any different.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

Additionally, a good share of the decrease in the crime rate can be attributed to Roe versus Wade.

What does that or any other crime statistic have to do with abandoned and or derelict vessels.
IMO the first thing they need to do is get rid of all the ambiguous anchoring laws concerning the afore mentioned vessels, and enact a concise easy to read and follow law at the state level. That defines and has a specific remedy for dealing with anchored vessels that meet the requirements of said laws.
I have posted it before there are laws such as this in other states that can be used as a model to draft one for Florida that would be viable.

[Cottontop]

Now, some might think that all this talk of incarceration is thread drift, but not at all, not at all.

Some of those incarcerated would undoubtedly otherwise be living on a derelict boat. I looked up the cost of incarceration, and while estimates are all over the place, $40,000/yr is probably fair.

So, $40,000/yr versus the cost of dealing with a derelict boat. I'm thinking the derelict boat route is way cheaper.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Cottontop

Now, some might think that all this talk of incarceration is thread drift, but not at all, not at all.

Some of those incarcerated would undoubtedly otherwise be living on a derelict boat. I looked up the cost of incarceration, and while estimates are all over the place, $40,000/yr is probably fair.

So, $40,000/yr versus the cost of dealing with a derelict boat. I'm thinking the derelict boat route is way cheaper.

I'm not sure if you are trying to be a smart ass, but the advantage of incarceration is that these criminals are not able to continue committing crimes while they are incarcerated.