FWC Derelict Enforcement Marathon

[FSMike]

Originally Posted by CareKnot

Just a minor correction. She isn't a part of the OP. She isn't homeless, her yacht isn't a derelict and she is not a criminal either. From what I read, she is a compassionate and caring human being. -----

Who is "she"?

[PhiSig1071]

As for the salvage costs, one big item no one has mentioned yet, the cost of insurance for the salvage company owner. I worked for Sea Tow for a while, which is closer to AAA than true salvage, but I can tell you, it's dangerous.

[Boatguy30]

I think 14 days is quite reasonable for cruisers
Liveaboards not so much. Was in Newport, RI over the summer city provided showers lounge and internet fully js equivalent of Marathon for free with a 10 day limit that was well enforced. Have to leave for 4 days then can one back. Wish more cities would do a common sense plan like that. Would not expect such nice free facilities, just a fair AND enforced plan.

[SURV69]

Originally Posted by rwidman

You seem to have a hard time with reading comprehension.

So a boat is a home. Of course it can be a home just like a trailer can be a home. You still don't have a right to anchor or park it on public property for an unlimited time.

It's the people who anchor boats permanently and live on them that cause the problems for us cruisers (yes, I am a "cruiser). Cruisers anchor for a few days and move on.

A central theme of a number of your posts seems to centralize abound being misunderstood

I'm a disabled American Vet ... have twice fractured my back in my youth.

Virtually all my life, I have been in constant pain from the fractures and arthritis ... and was self employed as a Professional Surveyor. Many, many times, I was uncertain that I'd be able to return home(for the night), because I would be way out, in the woods, with 40-50 pounds of equipment to haul back.

In 2005 or so, I had a downturn in business, I late 2006 my wife(she found a boyfriend) asked for a divorce ... I gave her the house and whatever and proceeded to get my life in order ... in 2007-2008, the bottom fell out of the economy ... and in late 2007, I experienced a number of health issues(extreme diabetis(sp), Gall-Bladder issues, heart attack and a bum foot(achilles(sp) tendon) ... I have been 100% disabled for some years. Lots of medical bills(VA medical in the 1970's ... re-entered the VA medical system in 2008)

I live on my sailboat each summer and live where"ever", during the winter. I do this mostly for monetary reasons.

If I was more of a sailor, I would be in more mid-latitudes(not Florida), and I'd be living well below the rate of a respectable retirement ... BUT, I "could", be in Florida.

IF, I were living on a boat, in Florida, I could easily be the owner of a "pre-dereict", or maybe even a "derelict" boat ... just a little more detrimental turn in fate, would put me there. At which time, I'd be looking at ever-mounting fines, court-appearances, summonses, maybe some warrants(sometimes, when a summons is not served to a person without a permanent address, the court then issues a warrant(and all this is at added costs), and sometimes, because of lack of appear(even with no real service), a person becomes incarcerated ... and sometimes because of associated court costs.

Now, I have NEVER done any illicit drugs ... and no Mary-Jane either ... EVER.

I have NEVER committed any sort of worthwhile crime(in my entire life, I have one speeding ticket, two warnings and was responsible for looking at the wrong rear-end at a traffic light in 1969 ... minor damage.

I never fell through the cracks ... by the Grace of God... so ... I very often think to myself when I read about some of these things(like this thread) ... there, but for the Grace of God, go I.

I'm sure a lot of these derelict owners are nothing more than irresponsible, but I'm equally sure a whole are also ... not.

So I take, the attempted reduction/withdrawal of "rights", from one group of people, for the sole purpose to enhance the rights of others(often privileged) as obscene and bothersome.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by PhiSig1071

As for the salvage costs, one big item no one has mentioned yet, the cost of insurance for the salvage company owner. I worked for Sea Tow for a while, which is closer to AAA than true salvage, but I can tell you, it's dangerous.

As someone already mentioned the State/Feds can alleviate this problem by granting some sort of immunity from lawsuits, etc. to the salvagers. I don't believe anyone is arguing that all salvaging is cheap and easy. But what I am arguing that it's costs CAN be manageable as far as salvaging floating "derelicts" if we put our minds to it and deal with its most expensive aspects accordingly. We as a society had enough brains and wherewithal to put a man on the Moon so I'm sure we can take care of a few hundreds (thousands?) of legally declared derelicts and not bust our State/Federal budgets.

[Jason Flare]

Originally Posted by FSMike

Who is "she"?

Sailorchic.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by SURV69

A central theme of a number of your posts seems to centralize abound being misunderstood

I'm a disabled American Vet ... have twice fractured my back in my youth.

Virtually all my life, I have been in constant pain from the fractures and arthritis ... and was self employed as a Professional Surveyor. Many, many times, I was uncertain that I'd be able to return home(for the night), because I would be way out, in the woods, with 40-50 pounds of equipment to haul back.

In 2005 or so, I had a downturn in business, I late 2006 my wife(she found a boyfriend) asked for a divorce ... I gave her the house and whatever and proceeded to get my life in order ... in 2007-2008, the bottom fell out of the economy ... and in late 2007, I experienced a number of health issues(extreme diabetis(sp), Gall-Bladder issues, heart attack and a bum foot(achilles(sp) tendon) ... I have been 100% disabled for some years. Lots of medical bills(VA medical in the 1970's ... re-entered the VA medical system in 2008)

I live on my sailboat each summer and live where"ever", during the winter. I do this mostly for monetary reasons.

If I was more of a sailor, I would be in more mid-latitudes(not Florida), and I'd be living well below the rate of a respectable retirement ... BUT, I "could", be in Florida.

IF, I were living on a boat, in Florida, I could easily be the owner of a "pre-dereict", or maybe even a "derelict" boat ... just a little more detrimental turn in fate, would put me there. At which time, I'd be looking at ever-mounting fines, court-appearances, summonses, maybe some warrants(sometimes, when a summons is not served to a person without a permanent address, the court then issues a warrant(and all this is at added costs), and sometimes, because of lack of appear(even with no real service), a person becomes incarcerated ... and sometimes because of associated court costs.

Now, I have NEVER done any illicit drugs ... and no Mary-Jane either ... EVER.

I have NEVER committed any sort of worthwhile crime(in my entire life, I have one speeding ticket, two warnings and was responsible for looking at the wrong rear-end at a traffic light in 1969 ... minor damage.

I never fell through the cracks ... by the Grace of God... so ... I very often think to myself when I read about some of these things(like this thread) ... there, but for the Grace of God, go I.

I'm sure a lot of these derelict owners are nothing more than irresponsible, but I'm equally sure a whole are also ... not.

So I take, the attempted reduction/withdrawal of "rights", from one group of people, for the sole purpose to enhance the rights of others(often privileged) as obscene and bothersome.

+1000

I am afraid that the inability and/or unwillingness of "Marie Antoinettes" of today to see and understand what you are saying will at some point lead them to a similar fate as their role model. But by then we will all lose.

[PhiSig1071]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

As someone already mentioned the State/Feds can alleviate this problem by granting some sort of immunity from lawsuits, etc. to the salvagers. I don't believe anyone is arguing that all salvaging is cheap and easy. But what I am arguing that it's costs CAN be manageable as far as salvaging floating "derelicts" if we put our minds to it and deal with its most expensive aspects accordingly. We as a society had enough brains and wherewithal to put a man on the Moon so I'm sure we can take care of a few hundreds (thousands?) of legally declared derelicts and not bust our State/Federal budgets.

I'm not talking about liability, I'm talking about workers comp! Damaging a derelict boat is nothing compared to an injury to one of your employees.

Ever seen what a separated tow line will do to fiberglass when you're trying to get a boat afloat/ungrounded? I have, and but for the grace of God goes my head and my life.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by PhiSig1071

I'm not talking about liability, I'm talking about workers comp! Damaging a derelict boat is nothing compared to an injury to one of your employees.

Ever seen what a separated tow line will do to fiberglass when you're trying to get a boat afloat/ungrounded? I have, and but for the grace of God goes my head and my life.

First of all we're mostly talking here about boats which still float not re: refloating already sunk boats. Second, why assume that in all cases it will be a line tow and not a side tow? Last season I had to tow a 25 footer with a 36 footer (both sailboats). Of the 25 miles of total distance first and last few miles had to be side to side and about 20 miles were by line. After that experience I really don't see what's all the fuss is about. Especially considering that in such non-emergency tows one can chose the right weather window, adequate crew, proper lines properly secured, etc. We're not talking salvages during storms or some such. You keep scaring us with the worst case scenarios as being typical and this is just wrong. Sort of like expecting being ran over each time an average pedestrian crosses at an intersection with typical amount of traffic. Yes there is a chance of mishap or some unforeseen setback but normally we don't live our lives without balancing the severity of potential harm with realistic chances of that harm taking place.

PS What about "worker's comp" issues for those CG helicopter pilots rescuing people in the middle of 50kn storms in 20ft seas? Or park rangers rescuing avalanche victims during a snow blizzard? Perhaps CG can incorporated such salvages as part of their SARs training. I bet you once that happens the private salvagers, after raising hue and cry, will lower their fees accordingly to compete with new realities of the market.

[leftbrainstuff]

Sounds like the threat of jail time got many shysters to get rid of their floating detritus. That sounds like a positive outcome.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff

Sounds like the threat of jail time got many shysters to get rid of their floating detritus. That sounds like a positive outcome.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

You may be on to something. How about having a "marine work-release clean up program" for minor offenders the way we have them clean up the highways, roads, etc.? They can also walk around cleaning beaches, estuaries, etc. They can work as crew help salvaging declared derelicts', thus reducing the costs of these salvage ops. Who knows, they may eventually even become salvagers themselves seeing how close that profession is to their past income earning methods.

[Byrdman]

Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff

Sounds like the threat of jail time got many shysters to get rid of their floating detritus. That sounds like a positive outcome.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

That is fine for the ones with the means to do it, but usually the owners of these boats are not shysters, but poor with no means to do it.

This is not to say they are not responsible, just that locking them up because they can not afford to fix the problem is not a viable solution.

Although I am just looking into cruising and I dont have a sailboat now, I do own a fishing boat that gets a lot of use fishing and diving. This has become a problem with no easy solution.

IMO, what will probably eventually happen to pay for this is that a state fee at the boat's purchases, like tire, oil, etc. disposal fees, and additional annual registration fees could create a fund to deal with the problem. Although I may not like it, it would seem the most fair to spread out on everyone that makes up the boating community.

As an avid (motor) boater and Floridian all my life, something needs to be done about this problem all over the state, not just the Keys, but throwing people in jail is not a solution I would agree with, IMO...

[Scout 30]

Originally Posted by rwidman

You seem to have a hard time with reading comprehension.

So a boat is a home. Of course it can be a home just like a trailer can be a home. You still don't have a right to anchor or park it on public property for an unlimited time.

It's the people who anchor boats permanently and live on them that cause the problems for us cruisers (yes, I am a "cruiser). Cruisers anchor for a few days and move on.

You seem to have a hard time stating your case without personally attacking people. The fact is that you are making my point for me. Once again you are advocating limiting everyone's right to anchor. Why does a cruiser have to move on after just a few days? Why do you care how long someone lives on their boat in one place? As long as they are responsible boat owners & not breaking any laws how does that hurt you?

[PhiSig1071]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

First of all we're mostly talking here about boats which still float not re: refloating already sunk boats. Second, why assume that in all cases it will be a line tow and not a side tow? Last season I had to tow a 25 footer with a 36 footer (both sailboats). Of the 25 miles of total distance first and last few miles had to be side to side and about 20 miles were by line. After that experience I really don't see what's all the fuss is about. Especially considering that in such non-emergency tows one can chose the right weather window, adequate crew, proper lines properly secured, etc. We're not talking salvages during storms or some such. You keep scaring us with the worst case scenarios as being typical and this is just wrong. Sort of like expecting being ran over each time an average pedestrian crosses at an intersection with typical amount of traffic. Yes there is a chance of mishap or some unforeseen setback but normally we don't live our lives without balancing the severity of potential harm with realistic chances of that harm taking place.

PS What about "worker's comp" issues for those CG helicopter pilots rescuing people in the middle of 50kn storms in 20ft seas? Or park rangers rescuing avalanche victims during a snow blizzard? Perhaps CG can incorporated such salvages as part of their SARs training. I bet you once that happens the private salvagers, after raising hue and cry, will lower their fees accordingly to compete with new realities of the market.

You were towing a well-found boat, not a rotting derelict with two feet of water in the bilge.

And insurance requires you to have coverage for the worst case scenario, at all times, regardless of your day to day activities. You cant call them up and say "well, today I'm just moving a few boats around the harbor so I dont need much coverage, but tomorrow I'll be working an ungrounding in heavy weather so I'll need full coverage then."

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Scout 30

.......... Why does a cruiser have to move on after just a few days? ..........

Because if he doesn't, he is not a cruiser, he is a squatter.

The reason you can't understand my point is, you are reading my post, not with the intention of trying to understand, but with the intention of arguing.