FWC Derelict Enforcement Marathon

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by rwidman

BS, pure BS. Can you not understand or do you choose to not understand?

It's about removing junk from public view. Nothing more. You couldn't park your junk car on a public street and live in it, why is your junk boat on a public waterway any different?

Just like the car, if you keep moving, it's OK. You just can't park either and live in it.

It's actually you who is refusing to see the difference between a car and someone's home. And people like you are creating artificial rules and regs impacting people's homes and lives while you're just passing by on your way to the next golf course. If it is public water then a bum living in his own boat should have as much right to be on that water as you and me. At least that was the traditinal centuries old maritime law up to now. And if you don't like the view or the smell of that boat may be it is you and not that bum who should move on to more pleasant surroundings.

[newhaul]

I like the anchoring laws here in Washington I have posted them before all anchored vessels must move at a minimum of 5nm at least every 30 days reguardless of value or condition. Violators are taged and have 30 days to remove the vessel or face siezure and be held liable for disposal costs.
Also here there is a fee added to registration of vessels that is used to fund the disposal costs of the derelict vessels that are siezed. Works well here. Ymmv in sunny warm florida.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Agreed.

Except that the 'too poor too free' can simply get their boats or homes in order and avoid being seen unwelcome. Yes, we can. Or was it just a catchphrase?

Why clean up my boat if I can blame everything on gentrification and the heartless society?

Uh?

It is the owners' choice how their boat looks like and whether this is still a boat or rather a dirty and decaying object - unsightly and dangerous to sailors, citizens and the environment alike.

Like you, I am all for free and poor. But soap and brush make plenty of sense to me too.

If we all clean up our own mess there is very little left to be done with taxpayers' money.

Agreed?

b.

Agree.

And I have no problem with policing things which physically impact us all such as open waste discharge, poor and dangerous anchoring or anchoring in the middle of the channel, etc. But the problem I have is with the direction of the trend. If it were only about the true derelicts I'd agree 100%. But it never would stop there. Next would be people who anchor to hoard them into paying mooring and dockage fees. Then it would be "seasonal demand pricing" to gouge the year around residents (even with nice and clean boats) into moving away to make room for the grey poupon crowd. And we will end up like some sort of segregated 3rd world hell hole where the haves will live behind high walls and the have nots will be dreaming how to take over Hugo Chavez style. If you don't think we're already moving in that direction do I have a bridge to sell you.

[sailorchic34]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Agreed.

Except that the 'too poor too free' can simply get their boats or homes in order and avoid being seen unwelcome. Yes, we can. Or was it just a catchphrase?

Why clean up my boat if I can blame everything on gentrification and the heartless society?

Uh?

It is the owners' choice how their boat looks like and whether this is still a boat or rather a dirty and decaying object - unsightly and dangerous to sailors, citizens and the environment alike.

The issue is of course money or the lack of it. Washing a boat is fine and dandy. But take the Rose, it needs new paint and a few layers of high build epoxy to hide all the cracks/crazing in the 44 year old gel coat. To do it right costs lots more money then I currently have. It's cosmetic and not a danger to the hull or deck.

The sad thing is there is a gentrification movement about. SF use to have a lot of interesting folks and lots of charm and character. Alas those days are quickly dying as SF turns into a white bread tech center with $3000/month rents and a lot of boring rich tech people. If you have money, it's not an issue. If your poorer, well your slowly getting screwed.

Use to be liveaboards needed a 30 foot boat in the SF bay area. Now several marina's require a 35 foot boat or 40 foot. When they all require 35 feet. I'll be one of the down and out anchor outs. So I'm being slowing priced and ruled out for a slip. Probably 5-8 years away. Joy.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by rwidman

BS, pure BS. Can you not understand or do you choose to not understand?

It's about removing junk from public view. Nothing more. You couldn't park your junk car on a public street and live in it, why is your junk boat on a public waterway any different?

Just like the car, if you keep moving, it's OK. You just can't park either and live in it.

But maybe some are following the impossible dream. You see this here almost daily. I don't have a pot to piss in or the window to throw it out of, but I intend to live on a boat and live cheap. When reality strikes the boat becomes a derelict.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by newhaul

I like the anchoring laws here in Washington I have posted them before all anchored vessels must move at a minimum of 5nm at least every 30 days reguardless of value or condition. Violators are taged and have 30 days to remove the vessel or face siezure and be held liable for disposal costs.
Also here there is a fee added to registration of vessels that is used to fund the disposal costs of the derelict vessels that are siezed. Works well here. Ymmv in sunny warm florida.

I also believe that there should be a substantial one time disposal fee/tax paid by the new boat buyer or a delaer with proceeds going to a disposal trust fund of sorts. That will not only encourage saving/refitting the older boats but will alleviate the $$ issue for the local LEOs when they have to dispose real derelicts themselves. They would just get reimbursed from that trust fund and that would also solve the most pressing issue of totally abandoned boats. For these and their owners I have no sympathy whatsoever. My beef is with pushing around liveaboards who happen to be too poor to satisfy Maria Antoinettes of this world. Anyone of us, but for the grace of g-d, can become such a poor liveaboard some day. Or already be one in someone else's eye.

[dwedeking2]

If we are not, there is no freedom left.

Once you get use to this fact you'll stress less about all the rules in the US.

[uncle stinkybob]

It's popular, even on this site, to classify a boat owner "rich" if they pay their own way, take care of their own needs and resultant refuse.
Fine, I classify people who own /use these boats for nothing more than hideout's, dumping sewage and garbage in public lands and creating navigational hazards to all other vessels as nothing more than pimples on the ass of mankind. You should be popped!
Personnel responsibility is not very popular anymore. and it's free to practice in your life.
I have never been rich nor wealthy, and I don't live outside my means, expecting someone else to foot the bill.
If it was freedom these poooor people crave, why are they living in populated areas, disobeying local law and having to deal with law enforcement? That does not sound like living the cheap life to me at all. It sounds like crimminals, addict's and other fringe freaks that crap upon the world and don't give two turds (pun) about anyone else.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by uncle stinkybob

It's popular, even on this site, to classify a boat owner "rich" if they pay their own way, take care of their own needs and resultant refuse.
Fine, I classify people who own /use these boats for nothing more than hideout's, dumping sewage and garbage in public lands and creating navigational hazards to all other vessels as nothing more than pimples on the ass of mankind. You should be popped!
Personnel responsibility is not very popular anymore. and it's free to practice in your life.
I have never been rich nor wealthy, and I don't live outside my means, expecting someone else to foot the bill.
If it was freedom these poooor people crave, why are they living in populated areas, disobeying local law and having to deal with law enforcement? That does not sound like living the cheap life to me at all. It sounds like crimminals, addict's and other fringe freaks that crap upon the world and don't give two turds (pun) about anyone else.

I think you are making an assumption. Maybe I am naïve but I think most start out with good intentions but uninformed about the costs of boating. Probably not your top wage earners or the highest IQ but junkies, etc.?

[uncle stinkybob]

Originally Posted by Cadence

I think you are making an assumption. Maybe I am naïve but I think most start out with good intentions but uninformed about the costs of boating. Probably not your top wage earners or the highest IQ but junkies, etc.?

and I think your incorrect and the news articale supports my opinion of who and what these people are. Also my own observation's on vessels in this condition.
So who is assuming what? sounds like you are the one assuming.
The proof is in the pudding. The people paying tax's and voting law have had enough of your " cheap freedom" at their expense.

[sailorchic34]

Originally Posted by uncle stinkybob

If it was freedom these poooor people crave, why are they living in populated areas, disobeying local law and having to deal with law enforcement? That does not sound like living the cheap life to me at all. It sounds like crimminals, addict's and other fringe freaks that crap upon the world and don't give two turds (pun) about anyone else.

Many of the poor sailors/anchorouts I know are just trying not to live under a bridge. The lower end folks still need to buy food, water, etc each week. Many oddly work ashore, which you can't do out in the boondocks. Luckily I can work in the boodocks, but I'm the rare fridge freak that can.

Some are retired folk living on a small fixed VA or SS check. Some are just trying not to live under a bridge. Lots of old retired military living on boats. One ex-airborne guy was hoping to move into a military retirement home. Nope no space and not enough money. So he who can barely walk now, lives aboard.

Myself for example, I was making 90K a year when I started living aboard in the bay area. Then I got to old for engineering at 55. Good thing I'm not a programer as most are put to pasture at 40-45 years of age. Now I make $7k a year ish doing part time pickup projects for different firms around the country.

When I purchased my boat for liveaboard, the rules were you needed a 30 foot boat to live on. Now many places say 35 feet is the minimum. Where do you think the folks with a 30 foot liveaboard go to when they are kicked out for not having a 35 foot boat now.

[captain58sailin]

I'm not a big fan of more regulations, quite the opposite. It is not easy to strike a balance of the dangers to public health and the person living in an inexpensive fashion. That is a judgement that different perspectives have conflicting views. One man's trash is another man's treasure. If you have regulations they have to be written as a blanket rule, and some that don't fit in the box description can be hurt. On the other end, is people riding around at night with flour sacks over their heads and torching the offenders homes or boats depending on the community's sensibilities. No matter where the line gets drawn, someone is going to left out in the cold.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

It's actually you who is refusing to see the difference between a car and someone's home. And people like you are creating artificial rules and regs impacting people's homes and lives while you're just passing by on your way to the next golf course. If it is public water then a bum living in his own boat should have as much right to be on that water as you and me. At least that was the traditinal centuries old maritime law up to now. And if you don't like the view or the smell of that boat may be it is you and not that bum who should move on to more pleasant surroundings.

Again, BS! You are the one being ignorant here.

Nobody can drag a broken down mobile home to the city park and expect to live there for free and poop behind a tree. Your broken down boat is no different. Passing through? Fine. Set up residence? Nope, no way.

[uncle stinkybob]

Originally Posted by sailorchic34

Many of the poor sailors/anchorouts I know are just trying not to live under a bridge. The lower end folks still need to buy food, water, etc each week. Many oddly work ashore, which you can't do out in the boondocks. Luckily I can work in the boodocks, but I'm the rare fridge freak that can.

Some are retired folk living on a small fixed VA or SS check. Some are just trying not to live under a bridge. Lots of old retired military living on boats. One ex-airborne guy was hoping to move into a military retirement home. Nope no space and not enough money. So he who can barely walk now, lives aboard.

Myself for example, I was making 90K a year when I started living aboard in the bay area. Then I got to old for engineering at 55. Good thing I'm not a programer as most are put to pasture at 40-45 years of age. Now I make $7k a year ish doing part time pickup projects for different firms around the country.

When I purchased my boat for liveaboard, the rules were you needed a 30 foot boat to live on. Now many places say 35 feet is the minimum. Where do you think the folks with a 30 foot liveaboard go to when they are kicked out for not having a 35 foot boat now.

Not my problem. and sure as hell not an excuse for the behavior of these people. Dumping garbage? dumbing raw sewage? local theft increase's? boat's abandoned? navigational hazard? What's that have to do with 30ft or 35ft? nothing. Not paying the same fee's for registration and licencing as everyone else as required by law? Those same law abiding people who payed as required now also paying for the clean up. If you can't afford a life style you have chosen, is it for the rest of us to pay your way?

[uncle stinkybob]

:thumb

Originally Posted by rwidman

Again, BS! You are the one being ignorant here.

Nobody can drag a broken down mobile home to the city park and expect to live there for free and poop behind a tree. Your broken down boat is no different. Passing through? Fine. Set up residence? Nope, no way.