Mexico...a Changing Place

[engele]

Realistically I think there is truth in all of this. Mexico is becoming more dangerous despite all of the debate. It isn't a question of Narco violence, though that doesn't help, but a question of more petty theft and armed robbery. It doesn't just affect Mexico either. The economy is not doing well and people who in the past could work don't have that option in some cases. We know several boats who have had issues in Mexico, though in all except one case, no one was hurt. The knee jerk defensiveness about commentary on Mexico helps no one. It is a dangerous world out here, but that doesn't mean we have to stay home.

[gcgator]

ok, i read most of this thread with interest (until it got into the evils of mexico, and guns, and the us. thruth is no where is entirily safe anymore). all i got is a cheap old columbia 27, and i have yet to sail it outta country, but i would never leave it in any port except its home marinia.

and i really dont even care about it that much, its my cheap see if i like cruising boat.

[rgscpat]

Even narcotraficante bosses have nieces and nephews working in the tourism industry. They have friends and associates who invest in restaurants and motels and nightclubs. It is not in the interest of the crime bosses to beat up on turistas and if some low-level thugs hit on tourists, the crime bosses are perhaps even more likely than the cops to disapprove. However, the instability of the situation between the government and the cartels has created more lawlessness and conflict, and getting caught in the middle can be very unfortunate, even if one isn't an intended target. Also, unfortunately, it is expensive to be poor, and perhaps even more expensive to be stupid.

[larryb]

I believe the mods will be ending this thread soon. It is one of the few I have read completely through. I sailed the west coast of Mex for two years, granted it was nearly thirteen years ago. Our boat was modest, we dressed, ate, shopped and socialized with the Mexican locals. We were always welcomed, and often felt like they were 'adopting' us, as we certainly did not appear wealthy by any mean. Even then it was common knowledge to stay away from the 'drug dealers'. That being said, I will have no problem returning to Mex, as it has changed, so has the US and there will be an increasing amount of desperatly poor people with in our own borders as there already is.
As for the loss of Halcyon, IMHO, it appears the op basically abandoned his boat. The mooring and its gear of very questionable strength for the size of the boat and the season he left it and the uprotected nature of the area he left it. Safe harbor less than and days sail away in either direction? Is that not one of the reasons we choose to sail. I know of one couple on a 30ft islander that lost their engine and chose to install a water maker instead of rebuilding the engine, then they headed proceeded with the puddle jump. I know another couple on a 36 Columbia that lost their engine and tacked all the way back up the coast to SF from PV and made it in a very respectable time frame.
I am no more fearful nor careful in Mexico than down town San Diegeo, less so than downtown LA, Las Vegas or Oakland.
All of you fearful of the narco violence in Mex should be very concerned about the further proliferation of it into the US borders and your home town. As far as I can tell, the fastest and most effective way to stop the spread of the narco violence is to legalize the recreational use of marijuana. That would be a start. Lisbon portugal has legalized all recreational drugs and there has been an over all decline in use across the board and expecially in teenages. Prohibition does not work. Drugs is big business with huge profits. Take away the profits and tax it, doh.... Show the enterprising Mexicans that tourism is their best option. Eco friendly, to an extent, and highly profitable.
As far as Lat 38 trivializing the danger in Mex. They are in touch with more cruisers and do more cruising than any one. I trust their reporting way more than our mainling media, 'propaganda'. Richard Spindler please keep up the excellent mag and when you retire, please pass it on to a like-minded soul and remain a guest. contributor.
Zee, inserting an easily translated spanish word here and there in your writing on an english based forum only makes you seem less credible, ie "violencia". So, cuidado on your adventura, and abre ojos for la tormentas mi amiga. Hast manana, possibla en un ano.
Just my two cents worth, thanks for reading this rant this far. It was a therapuetic rant for me. Thanks for allowing me it.
Larry

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by larryb

I believe the mods will be ending this thread soon.
As for the loss of Halcyon, IMHO, it appears the op basically abandoned his boat.
I am no more fearful nor careful in Mexico than down town San Diegeo, less so than downtown LA, Las Vegas or Oakland.
All of you fearful of the narco violence in Mex should be very concerned about the further proliferation of it into the US borders and your home town. As far as I can tell, the fastest and most effective way to stop the spread of the narco violence is to legalize the recreational use of marijuana.

First I will say that I am the op of this thread, not Michael Scott, who was the one that lost his boat. We can make all the judgment calls on Mr. Scott we want. He was there and experienced it first hand.
Secondly by your own admission, you were there 13 years ago. A lot has changed in the field of drug trafficking and the Government.
Your third point of legalizing pot is shall we say..."smoke and mirrors". It would change little as most of the crop is Cocaine, Heroine and Meth. I worked years in the field of substance abuse and believe it or not...pot is a gateway drug. Less I digress.
...and why would the mods end this thread? It's totally about boats, cruising and solutions. But please feel free to rant away...

[foolishsailor]

Lads,

Lets get back on track, the discussion about drug use and policy is irrelevant to this forum once it no longer contributes to a discussion about Cruising. This is am interesting thread, lets try to keep it open.

Thanks

[rognvald]

Originally Posted by rgscpat

Even narcotraficante bosses have nieces and nephews working in the tourism industry. They have friends and associates who invest in restaurants and motels and nightclubs. It is not in the interest of the crime bosses to beat up on turistas and if some low-level thugs hit on tourists, the crime bosses are perhaps even more likely than the cops to disapprove. However, the instability of the situation between the government and the cartels has created more lawlessness and conflict, and getting caught in the middle can be very unfortunate, even if one isn't an intended target. Also, unfortunately, it is expensive to be poor, and perhaps even more expensive to be stupid.

Thank you for the clarification. I think I can finally see it clearly. We, as cruisers, should not be concerned about violence or theft in Mexico since the "Narcos" goal is to preserve tourism for both land tourists and cruisers alike. If I ever return, I will be certain to patronize only establishments owned by the drug dealers. I know ,then, I will truly feel safe. Good luck and good sailing.

[Dennis.G]

Notice how when the discussion of "is Mexico too dangerous?" the people who don't go there say its too dangerous, while the ones who have actually cruised in Mexico say its no problem? Who do you really think has the benefit of first hand knowlege?

I remember when I was in high school living in the Los Angeles area. It was near time of the Watts riots. Met an English family while we were on vacation, and they thought that our entire family was completely insane to live in a place as wildly dangerous as Los Angeles.
OK, they were probabily on to something there.

[Celestialsailor]

I'm seeing the people that have been to Mx, were there 10+ years ago. This includes myself. So I would not draw a conclusion about Mx today based on old experiences. The reports coming out of Mx are documented in sailing mags and local news. The Narco movement is as recent as 3 years and has been escalating from then.

[senormechanico]

Admittedly, it was in the mid '90's when we cruised there, but we made close friends with several locals in more than a few coastal towns.
We were able to talk about several subjects including financial and political things with them.

When the subject of illegal border crossings came up, our Mexican friends became enraged, but not at us. They were disgusted at the illegals actions which painted all Mexicans with a tarred brush.

[zeehag]

i am here in mexico RIGHT THIS MINUTE.
i would sooner cruise here than in usa. there ar ea bunch of really good folks here.
the entire world is changing as the financial situation worsens--so will th eentire world become much more dangerous. is not just mexico. i am happy and feel safe here--is good. i am watched over by good souls to make sure my stuff is repaired and that i dont starve--life here is great. just do not sit int he spideys nest--doesnt matter where in the world you are--there are good spots and not so good spots=--is up to YOU to find where the good stuff is. no one will help ye find it nor will anyone help ye find a mooring that is sturdy enough for a heavy cruiser unless is placed just for your boat. folks must intermingle with the locals to find out anything as well as have some semblance of safety.

no, i would die before leaving a boat in mexico or anywhere else--i have one in sd--has been violated much while in the mooring field in sd --is a safe mooring field--i would much rather cruise here than be in any place wherein the neighbors snipe and thieve from ye, as they do in sd,err, coronado.

btw--when i spoke with my crew in zihua, i was advised the boat came off mooring in weather. he watched. have fun and good luck.

[micah719]

We are hearing all sorts of things about Mexico, people that have been there saying it is as bad/worse/better, and folks that haven't been there saying the same. It's like wandering in a minefield...sometimes you get lucky. Just because someone missed out on the tnt trampoline, doesn't mean it's all plain sailing. Anywhere. Just be careful, is all. Sometimes even that isn't enough. The Halcyon business was weird. The only place I'd consider going in the Americas is Canada, they scare me the least; though them Sasquatches do worry me...

[foolishsailor]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

The Narco movement is as recent as 3 years and has been escalating from then.

Im sorry but that isnt even close to true.

The narco trafficers have been operating for decades. The violence that we see now can be traced back to to specific incidents historically.

The first is the dissolution of the medellin and cali cartels in the 90s. Prior to this there was very little violence from the narcos due to the monopoly of the two cartels After their disolution there was a power vacumn and a huge amount of violence for years. I was down in mexico and columbia in 93/94 and the huge scale violence was significantly worse than today.

The second major uptick in violence was around 2006 when the government decided to tackle the narcos directly. This is also the policy today, it is a direct result of this policy that there is such a high level of drug related violence involving non narco victims. I was also down in baja during this time frame and did a trans mexico drive from my home town in san diego to the tip of baja and across to oaxaca in 2005.

Something also to note in the statistics. If you look at the violence numbers by state in mexico you will see it is very regionalized. Most of it occurs along the border and the sierra madre mountains.

Another thing to look at in the statistics is who the victims are in this violence, are they local or foreign.

Once you rationize the statistics to more accurately represent your own demographic you clearly see several things;

1. Baja Sur and the Areas around the Sea of Cortez in general have some of the lowest violence rates in Mexico

2. Drug related violence that does occur in these areas without exception does not involve foreigners except in extremely rare cases

3. General violence towards foreigners and violence that foreigners would be statistically likely to experience is lower than in most large american cities

If you want to know more of the facts about the history of violence and the drug war there are some great books

The Candy Machine
Bandit Roads

Are two that spring to mind...

...what does this have to do with cruising?

When it comes to baja, everything. I spent my whole life travelling mexico until i moved to ireland. From early teen years sneaking into Avenjda de Revolution to get cheap underage booze and night clubs to camping for months at a time surfing places like puerto, zap's, scorps bay, quatros to extended sailing trips and roads trips in sea of cortez and across the mainland to racing hobies every year in San felipe.

My whole life friends and family said i was crazy and this was a dangerous place but my and the experience of my friends and the statistics say otherwise. I have travelled there extensively since 87 and as recent as 2007.

As a sailor it is my most favorite cruising ground in the world and i have seen quite a few to judge it by. I should just let all the naysayers have thier way cause it would keep the crowds down, but as a member of the forum i just cant let people be dissauaded from visiting such a magical place full of magical people just because they have bought into the media fueled hype.

Like everywhere be aware when traveling, but if you are going to be anywhere near the sea of cortez or are in the planning stages of your trip make sure you find out the facts for yourself and visit this amazing place.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by foolishsailor

Im sorry but that isnt even close to true.

The narco trafficers have been operating for decades. The violence that we see now can be traced back to to specific incidents historically.

The first is the dissolution of the medellin and cali cartels in the 90s. Prior to this there was very little violence from the narcos due to the monopoly of the two cartels After their disolution there was a power vacumn and a huge amount of violence for years. I was down in mexico and columbia in 93/94 and the huge scale violence was significantly worse than today.

The second major uptick in violence was around 2006 when the government decided to tackle the narcos directly. This is also the policy today, it is a direct result of this policy that there is such a high level of drug related violence involving non narco victims. I was also down in baja during this time frame and did a trans mexico drive from my home town in san diego to the tip of baja and across to oaxaca in 2005.

Something also to note in the statistics. If you look at the violence numbers by state in mexico you will see it is very regionalized. Most of it occurs along the border and the sierra madre mountains.

Another thing to look at in the statistics is who the victims are in this violence, are they local or foreign.

Once you rationize the statistics to more accurately represent your own demographic you clearly see several things;

1. Baja Sur and the Areas around the Sea of Cortez in general have some of the lowest violence rates in Mexico

2. Drug related violence that does occur in these areas without exception does not involve foreigners except in extremely rare cases

3. General violence towards foreigners and violence that foreigners would be statistically likely to experience is lower than in most large american cities

If you want to know more of the facts about the history of violence and the drug war there are some great books

The Candy Machine
Bandit Roads

Are two that spring to mind...

...what does this have to do with cruising?

When it comes to baja, everything. I spent my whole life travelling mexico until i moved to ireland. From early teen years sneaking into Avenjda de Revolution to get cheap underage booze and night clubs to camping for months at a time surfing places like puerto, zap's, scorps bay, quatros to extended sailing trips and roads trips in sea of cortez and across the mainland to racing hobies every year in San felipe.

My whole life friends and family said i was crazy and this was a dangerous place but my and the experience of my friends and the statistics say otherwise. I have travelled there extensively since 87 and as recent as 2007.

As a sailor it is my most favorite cruising ground in the world and i have seen quite a few to judge it by. I should just let all the naysayers have thier way cause it would keep the crowds down, but as a member of the forum i just cant let people be dissauaded from visiting such a magical place full of magical people just because they have bought into the media fueled hype.

Like everywhere be aware when traveling, but if you are going to be anywhere near the sea of cortez or are in the planning stages of your trip make sure you find out the facts for yourself and visit this amazing place.

Let me clarify. By movement, I really mean the day time shootings in PV with another trafficker or the robbery at gunpoint in an anchorage. It has been more blatant in the last few years. Perhaps you took it too literal.
I know a few poster may seem as naysayers but we are all adults here and as such able to draw rational conclusions about our safety. Obviously the more facts we can obtain from media and stats as well as others personal experience is all useful. I am heading down next fall and will definitely have my internal radar up.

[zeehag]

the problem with the violence in this world is that EVERYWHERE not just mexico , is involved. a s finances dwindle, so crime will increase as folks try to keep food on their table. will happen more in usa as well. EVERYWHERE is endangered, not merely mexico.
mexico just wins our attention as they are just next door.
financial crises in world markets will yield more thievery and robbery . wont stop until isnt poverty in world anymore. is not merely mexico.
as long as folks are careful and dont involve selves in the violence or narco trade they should be ale to keep their heads intact.
as for placing a heavy boat onto a light and unknown mooring, that was choice of the owner, and was not a good one for hurrycame season. with witnesses seeing it go walkabout in a storm, i believe the mooring was too light and the man just screwed up, which happens .