Mexico confiscated 380 yachts - MERGED THREADS

[astonished]

Thanks Ann T. Cate - trouble is law, Napoleonic, English, or otherwise doesn't come into play in this situation. The marinas were stormed, boats with complete and compliant paperwork were seized, embargoed, call it what it will - stolen? - seemingly at random for the most spurious of reasons if any at all. No charges/accusations were levied. In most cases the seized/embargoed boat owners were not even informed their vessels had been seized until they tried to leave their marinas. When paperwork was presented, by lawyers at owner and marina expense, to the embargoing authority, acknowledgements of compliance were given but the boats were not "liberated." The problem with this situation is that most of the boats were in compliance and completely legal. "Errors" were made by a brand new branch of government whose function is to find and extract tax and property from so-called scofflaws. BUT the same errors were made in exactly the same way in 12 marinas simultaneously??? (While accompanied by heavily armed commandos) That doesn't sound like an error, it sounds like a well executed action against an unaware and innocent group of people. The biggest problem is that NOTHING legal or official has been provided to the seized/embargoed/arrested vessel owners. When one has legal action taken against one, in ANY system of law, formalities like warrants, accusations, written or at least delivered by an officer of the law are required. Simply embargoing/taking property without notice, cause, or even recourse is probably theft. The scale of this operation and the group it was aimed at (foreigners/tourists) along with the timing and execution of this action and now threats of violence - verbal only, nothing official or legal - to be carried out by a military branch of the government, smacks of only one thing in my books on international law - government sponsored terrorism - or piracy, in the least.

Imagine in your mind's eye... you are at the supermarket, you go out to your car and there is someone with a beer belly rounding out his T-shirt, chomping away on a big cigar with a group of angry looking youth with machine guns surrounding him. (If you're lucky) He says, your car is provisionally seized. You can still use it, you can sit in it, you can play the radio, flash the lights, open and close the ashtray as much as you please but you just can't move it from that parking spot. Not until he or maybe someone in another city says you can. Oh, and for good measure he tells you that if you move it, there's a bunch of guys with fast motorcycles who will hunt you down and that will be very bad!

Would there be a name for that kind of action? A legal term perhaps? I guess you could go to the police if you weren't in a country where the police or the courts aren't more dangerous than the gentlemen with the guns.

Now, I know, a car is not as big an asset as a boat or maybe someone's home but bear with me on this... The guy with the maybe threat doesn't tell you why your car is embargoed. But after several more hours (or days, in the case of boats) go by the gentleman with the so-called gun, casually smokes a cigarette and tells you your tire pressure looks low. You pull out your pressure gauge and show the man your tire pressure is in compliance - whew, now you can get home to your kids, drive the teenagers to football practice and go to work the next day. - WRONG! Just cuz your tire pressure is in compliance doesn't mean anything, the guy says he now has 4 months - maybe more if he pleases, to make a case against you. It's okay, you can still sit in the car, enjoy the radio - just can't drive it (oh and you have to pay for parking - this supermarket is a class-act, after all). What would you do? You might call your insurance company - they would want to know what you are accused of, they would need to see paperwork to get their lawyers on the matter, but no - no paperwork, just this guy with a bad haircut and threats - nothing official. You'd probably call the police - if you weren't in Mexico, that is. Now, imagine you ARE in Mexico. You know about the problems there - everyone whose head has rolled on live Internet video, everyone who has been gunned down or shaken down for bribes, every one of them was in the wrong - it was their fault, they must have done something wrong or they wouldn't have been victimized by the completely lawful, honorable, honest, open, trustworthy, and compassionate Mexican government. Yeah, it's a nice place.

Enjoy your freedom while you have it.

[astonished]

According to Lectronic Latitude 38 it doesn't sound any less scary - good resource, though! Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

The Latest on 'Impounded' Boats In Mexico

December 30, 2013 – Ensenada to Acapulco to Cancun

Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude

[Richard_W]

Originally Posted by astonished

We've been contacted by a foreign government office regarding family members currently in Mexico - so we are going to be carefully vague ...

Your post do seem to be vague but not sensitive and subtle as would be required when dealing with sensitive matters. Reads like a rant, and not as a desire to get to the successful and amicable solution.

Plenty of info and suggestions were given in the linked resources ... take the time to read and digest. So far, your posts here if read by the other side could only jeopardize the parties affected.

Besides, your point of view and perceptions are as subjective as theirs ... not everything revolves around, adheres to, follows American, or European, or whatever laws and customs you bring with you when you are somewhere else. Nothing to do with America ... a lot to do with locals and their laws/customs/habits in their country ... me thinks.

[tropicalescape]

Originally Posted by astonished

Thanks Ann T. Cate - trouble is law, Napoleonic, English, or otherwise doesn't come into play in this situation. The marinas were stormed, boats with complete and compliant paperwork were seized, embargoed, call it what it will - stolen? - seemingly at random for the most spurious of reasons if any at all. No charges/accusations were levied. In most cases the seized/embargoed boat owners were not even informed their vessels had been seized until they tried to leave their marinas. When paperwork was presented, by lawyers at owner and marina expense, to the embargoing authority, acknowledgements of compliance were given but the boats were not "liberated." The problem with this situation is that most of the boats were in compliance and completely legal. "Errors" were made by a brand new branch of government whose function is to find and extract tax and property from so-called scofflaws. BUT the same errors were made in exactly the same way in 12 marinas simultaneously??? (While accompanied by heavily armed commandos) That doesn't sound like an error, it sounds like a well executed action against an unaware and innocent group of people. The biggest problem is that NOTHING legal or official has been provided to the seized/embargoed/arrested vessel owners. When one has legal action taken against one, in ANY system of law, formalities like warrants, accusations, written or at least delivered by an officer of the law are required. Simply embargoing/taking property without notice, cause, or even recourse is probably theft. The scale of this operation and the group it was aimed at (foreigners/tourists) along with the timing and execution of this action and now threats of violence - verbal only, nothing official or legal - to be carried out by a military branch of the government, smacks of only one thing in my books on international law - government sponsored terrorism - or piracy, in the least.

Imagine in your mind's eye... you are at the supermarket, you go out to your car and there is someone with a beer belly rounding out his T-shirt, chomping away on a big cigar with a group of angry looking youth with machine guns surrounding him. (If you're lucky) He says, your car is provisionally seized. You can still use it, you can sit in it, you can play the radio, flash the lights, open and close the ashtray as much as you please but you just can't move it from that parking spot. Not until he or maybe someone in another city says you can. Oh, and for good measure he tells you that if you move it, there's a bunch of guys with fast motorcycles who will hunt you down and that will be very bad!

Would there be a name for that kind of action? A legal term perhaps? I guess you could go to the police if you weren't in a country where the police or the courts aren't more dangerous than the gentlemen with the guns.

Now, I know, a car is not as big an asset as a boat or maybe someone's home but bear with me on this... The guy with the maybe threat doesn't tell you why your car is embargoed. But after several more hours (or days, in the case of boats) go by the gentleman with the so-called gun, casually smokes a cigarette and tells you your tire pressure looks low. You pull out your pressure gauge and show the man your tire pressure is in compliance - whew, now you can get home to your kids, drive the teenagers to football practice and go to work the next day. - WRONG! Just cuz your tire pressure is in compliance doesn't mean anything, the guy says he now has 4 months - maybe more if he pleases, to make a case against you. It's okay, you can still sit in the car, enjoy the radio - just can't drive it (oh and you have to pay for parking - this supermarket is a class-act, after all). What would you do? You might call your insurance company - they would want to know what you are accused of, they would need to see paperwork to get their lawyers on the matter, but no - no paperwork, just this guy with a bad haircut and threats - nothing official. You'd probably call the police - if you weren't in Mexico, that is. Now, imagine you ARE in Mexico. You know about the problems there - everyone whose head has rolled on live Internet video, everyone who has been gunned down or shaken down for bribes, every one of them was in the wrong - it was their fault, they must have done something wrong or they wouldn't have been victimized by the completely lawful, honorable, honest, open, trustworthy, and compassionate Mexican government. Yeah, it's a nice place.

Enjoy your freedom while you have it.

"When in Rome" and "Becareful what you ask for" ....We all take our chances..

[Horror Hotel]

Between this and the other thread people seem firmly in one of two camps. One group seems to think everyone is over reacting and it's just entitled Americans, assuming that everyone should do things our way. Group two is up in arms about the lack of any real paper work or information about what's really going on. I am firmly in group two, and am sick to death of the not confiscated folks assuming it was something they did wrong and will easily be sorted out if the just patiently wait. I really hate to be inconvenienced and if it was my dollars tied to the dock down there with no real explanation I would be livid. Please stop telling these folks to calm down. You have no idea what their dealing with, so don't pretend like you would be fine with it, and it would be all roses. How about I take hour boat by gun point and have 120 days to decide if I let you keep it or fine you or maybe a stint in jail because your not to my liking.

[astonished]

Oh, my Dog! Do we ever - trouble is, I'm in a safe place worrying for those that unknowingly got themselves into a not safe place with misplaced trust.

[boatman61]

Sounds like coming into Newark airport with all the right stuff.. held in an office for 1/2hr then greeted into the country with a threat.. "If your not gone in 90 days we'll bust ya and deport your sorry ass.. we like doing that.."
And that's to a citizen from and 'Old Alliance..??' country..
seeing as your perceived dislike of ''Spic's and Greasers' is only surpassed by that of 'Ragheads'... as viewed by us 'outsiders'...
You want open arms from the world and a kiss on both cheeks..?
Do what the rest of the world has to do as individuals and get it right.. you'd be amazed at the difference.
I got no anti-American people/individuals sentiments.. well.. maybe one or two 'buttheads'.. but seriously... your image abroad sucks.. and attracts reprecussions

[astonished]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Do what the rest of the world has to do as individuals and get it right.. you'd be amazed at the difference.

Cute, but what you don't understand is that these victims DID everything right!

Probably like you at Newark, so you have a compassionate understanding what these victims face.

[boatman61]

I'd be very interested to know how many of these 380 'seized' boats are not US boats.. ie French, UK, German etc... must be some up that way..

[astonished]

Darn good question, boatman. I've seen from the threads about this that there is at least one New Zealand boat and I think several Canadian's embroiled in this.

Anybody out there know what the numbers are?

[Richard_W]

Originally Posted by astonished

Darn good question, boatman. I've seen from the threads about this that there is at least one New Zealand boat and I think several Canadian's embroiled in this.

Anybody out there know what the numbers are?

No ... but I bet non-American boats were only a few and a collateral damage of this precision pinpoint anti-American attack. Let's keep this anti-American conspiracy theory going ...

[brazenarticle]

Astonished - I'm not sure what you expect to be done here in the "internet world". As pointed out there are other posts regarding the issue, some seem more factual than others.

If your relations are not charged with a crime and are not free to leave they should contact the nearest US Consulate or Embassy if they are so inclined; in the states you could call your congressional representative or U S Senator.
Descriptions of beer bellied cigar chomping weaponized government narco terrorists are probably not helpful to the cause, I suggest you stick with "they want to leave and are be prevented from doing that".

[astonished]

Foreign consulates have been advised and are involved from many countries.

Marina owners have advised their trapped clients to put pressure on the Mexican government through their own government representatives.

The descriptions of beer bellied cigar chomping weaponized government narco terrorists (I like your description better than mine) is just to bring a little levity to a somewhat terrifying situation. It is also a good way to illustrate a point. Since seeing this forum I've realized some people seem tremendously hostile to cruisers/boaters - so using a car as a funny and lighthearted example might make what is happening to these people a little clearer.

What is happening in Mexico has to be brought to light. If not, our friends and relatives or even fellow cruisers will not, or are afraid to have a voice. Thus, they and their property - their boats, homes, and dreams - are at the mercy of the Mexican "government."

What can we on the Internet do? We have voices, we can demand answers, we can at least show our support for our friends or fellow cruisers caught in this scam or who-in-the-hell-knows-what-it-is.

If this resolves badly, hopefully not with loss of life, but just yachts, think of how easy it'll be to get insurance to cruise in Mexico. By the way, insurance IS required to cruise in Mexico.

This has gone on for over a month already, just with these yachts. With no end in sight. If it was your yacht, or your loved ones, or you in this situation how would you feel about the kind of mean-spirited belittlement by your fellow cruisers we're seeing here?

Whoa, I'm not a cruiser, I'm not even an American. I'm a deeply concerned sister, daughter, friend, wife, niece, aunt, lover, soul-mate (take your pick - at least it has a human face that can cry real tears) in as much dark as these victims are, but at least I am safe and I have a voice.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by astonished

Foreign consulates have been advised and are involved from many countries.

Marina owners have advised their trapped clients to put pressure on the Mexican government through their own government representatives.

The descriptions of beer bellied cigar chomping weaponized government narco terrorists (I like your description better than mine) is just to bring a little levity to a somewhat terrifying situation. It is also a good way to illustrate a point. Since seeing this forum I've realized some people seem tremendously hostile to cruisers/boaters - so using a car as a funny and lighthearted example might make what is happening to these people a little clearer.

What is happening in Mexico has to be brought to light. If not, our friends and relatives or even fellow cruisers will not, or are afraid to have a voice. Thus, they and their property - their boats, homes, and dreams - are at the mercy of the Mexican "government."

What can we on the Internet do? We have voices, we can demand answers, we can at least show our support for our friends or fellow cruisers caught in this scam or who-in-the-hell-knows-what-it-is.

If this resolves badly, hopefully not with loss of life, but just yachts, think of how easy it'll be to get insurance to cruise in Mexico. By the way, insurance IS required to cruise in Mexico.

This has gone on for over a month already, just with these yachts. With no end in sight. If it was your yacht, or your loved ones, or you in this situation how would you feel about the kind of mean-spirited belittlement by your fellow cruisers we're seeing here?

Whoa, I'm not a cruiser, I'm not even an American. I'm a deeply concerned sister, daughter, friend, wife, niece, aunt, lover, soul-mate (take your pick - at least it has a human face that can cry real tears) in as much dark as these victims are, but at least I am safe and I have a voice.

http://www.change.org/petition

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by sabray

Only 1/2 hour? And your still pissed. Sorry we weren't more welcoming. I see how your enjoying bashing the US. Our image abroad is only second to what ever makes people upset at the time.
Really us are very giving people. We also struggle with hard choices. So easy for you to just bash the US cause they hung you up for a tad. Why would we want you here more then 60 days let alone 90? Seems like we do pretty well giving liberty and choice compared to others. The US is still the leader of liberty and freedom.

You must be in one of the states that legalised weed mate..
You..?? promote Liberty and Freedom.. Bollox..
listen to your own people sometime...
And no.. it happens every time... the last time was last year when 'Dickheads of Homeland Security' stopped me and my crew from boarding at Gatwick airport, London... 2 days later after getting a fax from a local LE officer in Nth Palm Beach to verify there was a boat we were allowed to board...
And then you'll whinge about the restrictions in the EU... used to be a lot easier life for you guys once..
now we follow your lead..
Correction... Feb 2012... forgot we'd moved into 2014...