Oil Spill in Santa Barbara

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by Islandnut

In pumping toxic chems into the ocean yes !!!
You have no idea what you are talking about. The chemical dispersant they pumped is banned in most of the world. In effects the size of the molecules of the oil itself. So instead of being able to "see" the oil....it disappears to the naked eye. How do you think it "disappeared" when more than one boat was following the plume ???????
The oil from the well was/is sitting at the bottom of the gulf. Most people do not even realize how big the wellhead was to begin with. The cameras gave a false impression of the size. It's several stories tall.

I have talked to several people that were either on the rig before it happened and/or part of the cleanup, which there was little to do since 95% of the oil is on the bottom of the gulf at the time.

Now before you get ready to hit the reply button with anger..... I am a completion engineer in the oilfield. That means I know geology, hydrostatic pressure, and volumes that can be produced out of a given size of casing, etc.
THERE ARE MILLIONS OF GALLONS OF OIL ON THE OCEAN FLOOR FROM THIS

Now, the oilfield is my career and I will stand behind it from all of the naysayers, But I will not stand by and say nothing when a company makes the wrong decisions. BP sucks.

Saying bacteria ate the oil all up is like saying your politician will have your back after he gets elected.

In my post, I clearly stated that they used dispersants and that I strongly disagreed with their use. I did not post the rest - but I got into a heated discussion with a Coast Guard "marine biologist" who claimed dispersants eliminated the oil, I argued with her and told her every molecule of oil was still there, it was simply too small to be seen, but in that form it was probably even deadlier to fish than in it's clumped form.

I'm not angry with you, but disappointed that you chose to take a partial quote of my post in order to make a point and make it appear that I was ignorant of and in favor of their use of dispersants. I specifically stated it also added hundreds of thousands of gallons toxic chemicals to the ocean.

I would expect a tactic like that from a politician. In the future, please quote my entire post, or don't quote me at all. Simply write a post.

So your assertion is that there are still millions of gallons of oil at the floor of the Gulf. Yet from what I've heard in the news, the sea life has returned to normal levels. How is that?

I'm not doubting you, but can you provide a source for your data? Lord knows there are many biologists profiting from the aftermath of that spill, I'm sure they have exact amounts of oil mapped out throughout the fishing and shrimping areas.

[S/V Illusion]

If I might add something from my 30+ years experience in the cleanup of oil spills including R&D on most dispersants, this is a largely academic debate. Once the oil 'hits' the water, toxicity debates related to dispersants becomes a sideline and particularly so when talking about this type crude oil as the most toxic variety.

Most surfactants and dispersants add only marginally to the toxicity characteristics of crude. What dispersants provide is a decrease in shoreline and estuary impact AND facilitates more rapid degradation. Consequently, one could argue dispersants are a trade-off based on environmental priorities. Given a large part of the underwater plume was co-located with the Gulf dead zone, not much existed tobe impacted youse of dispersants in favor of protecting shoreline estuaries and wetlands.

Nothing is 'black and white' about this debate but ignoring the in-situ conditions makes your discussion dubious.

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

If I might add something from my 30+ years experience in the cleanup of oil spills including R&D on most dispersants, this is a largely academic debate. Once the oil 'hits' the water, toxicity debates related to dispersants becomes a sideline and particularly so when talking about this type crude oil as the most toxic variety.

Most surfactants and dispersants add only marginally to the toxicity characteristics of crude. What dispersants provide is a decrease in shoreline and estuary impact AND facilitates more rapid degradation. Consequently, one could argue dispersants are a trade-off based on environmental priorities. Given a large part of the underwater plume was co-located with the Gulf dead zone, not much existed tobe impacted youse of dispersants in favor of protecting shoreline estuaries and wetlands.

Nothing is 'black and white' about this debate but ignoring the in-situ conditions makes your discussion dubious.

I'm sure you know far more than I about the subject.

My objection to the dispersants centered on the toxicity of the chemicals used, the vast amounts of it they used, and the fact that a dispersant, by it's nature, takes a dense plume of oil and disperses it over a much larger volume of water. I felt this potentially endangered more fish (like aerosoiized crude oil in a room would fill up the air space and choke out everyone in it, vs raw crude that would settle to the floor.) Fortunately, this was apparently a short term effect.

Ultimately, you're right it did help protect shoreline and estuary lands, and that was a blessing. As I said, I'm no expert, but I was in the command center and was privy to reports filtering in both before and after the well was capped. I took other people's word as to what was happening and why.

[nimblemotors]

Originally Posted by Greenhand

Who is getting all riled up here?

Seems defenders of oil drillers are getting riled up.
Because you know they make kayaks from plastic and it takes energy to make solar panels, so polluting the coastline is no big deal. Getting tarballs on your surfboard is something you should expect, deal with it, I need to go fill up my boat with diesel now, and fire up the genset to take a shower. Don't bother me.

[rognvald]

"you know Amigo...we could be past the point of having a reasonable intellectual discussion on the topic because we have a reading comprehension issue to deal with first....honestly." Third Day

Yes, I totally agree and it's your inability to write clearly and concisely while stringing rambling, incoherent statements littered with boring and childish invectives and your penchant for brain numbing non sequiturs that is the cause. An intellectual discussion is perfectly possible. Want to try? However, let me refer you to a handy little book that is required reading in many freshman English classes: "Rea's Handbook of English Grammar, Style and Writing." Although there are hundreds of quality texts from which to choose, this will be a good start. Want to try again? Subject/verb/object. . . Subject/Verb/Object . . . C'mon Rich, you can do it!

[Don C L]

As someone who lived within a mile of Coal Oil Point for 7 years I'd like to call out some of the nonsense here. Yes there is natural seepage, and it often does smell, and there are little black blobs on the beach virtually all the time, but to compare that to an oil spill, especially like the one they are experiencing, is what makes envirocrazies like me even crazier with disgust. No one is served by dismissing this event or trying to belittle the importance of vigilance and strict oversight in the protection of the environment.

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by Don C L

As someone who lived within a mile of Coal Oil Point for 7 years I'd like to call out some of the nonsense here. Yes there is natural seepage, and it often does smell, and there are little black blobs on the beach virtually all the time, but to compare that to an oil spill, especially like the one they are experiencing, is what makes envirocrazies like me even crazier with disgust. No one is served by dismissing this event or trying to belittle the importance of vigilance and strict oversight in the protection of the environment.

I guess someone could argue that getting upset about one relatively small and episodic spill while accepting of the continuous releases from multiple sources in the sea bed is crazy...but I won't sy that.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

I guess someone could argue that getting upset about one relatively small and episodic spill while accepting of the continuous releases from multiple sources in the sea bed is crazy...but I won't sy that.

nice.

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by Don C L

As someone who lived within a mile of Coal Oil Point for 7 years I'd like to call out some of the nonsense here. Yes there is natural seepage, and it often does smell, and there are little black blobs on the beach virtually all the time, but to compare that to an oil spill, especially like the one they are experiencing, is what makes envirocrazies like me even crazier with disgust. No one is served by dismissing this event or trying to belittle the importance of vigilance and strict oversight in the protection of the environment.

I agree.

Until a judge orders the top executives of the company to go down there and personally dig up the muck and haul it off and pay the entire fine out of their own pockets, nothing will change.

In order for a deterrent to work, it's gotta hurt. Really hurt, or they'll just pay the fines, jack up prices and continue on as before. That's what's wrong with this world, lack of personal accountability, especially among those who don't ever seem to get prosecuted for their wrongdoing.

[Don C L]

Absolutely. Even for BP the fines they paid were just a bump in the road for them. I like the idea of the CEO with a shovel, but even that probably wouldn't last too long. We need a government that has reasonable regulations that are enforced. If men were angels no government would be necessary... now, someone famous said that, who was it? James Madison? Probably some envirocrazy.

[JPA Cate]

Many years ago, there was a tanker-leak in San Francisco Bay. There was a lot of work involved in the cleanup. And you know what, hundreds of local people volunteered, cleaned birds and beaches. Mostly, they wore Levis, and showered afterward. Today, no volunteer help is accepted.

Frustrated, people rant on the net instead of taking real action. Such a shame.

Ann

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Many years ago, there was a tanker-leak in San Francisco Bay. There was a lot of work involved in the cleanup. And you know what, hundreds of local people volunteered, cleaned birds and beaches. Mostly, they wore Levis, and showered afterward. Today, no volunteer help is accepted.

Frustrated, people rant on the net instead of taking real action. Such a shame.

Ann

The world has become a place where you are not allowed to act without going through the legal department mandated orientation and class to train you to handle dawn soap. Then and only then are you allowed to be a soap handler, but once there is a situation in front of you that you've not been trained on all work is halted and a new group think session is started with yet more training.........I work it every day and it's nearly driven me over the cliff on several occasions. The world in general needs to put their big boy pants back on.

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Absolutely. Even for BP the fines they paid were just a bump in the road for them. I like the idea of the CEO with a shovel, but even that probably wouldn't last too long. We need a government that has reasonable regulations that are enforced. If men were angels no government would be necessary... now, someone famous said that, who was it? James Madison? Probably some envirocrazy.

One thing BP did do was admit that the spill disrupted the lives of the local fishermen, shrimpers, charter fishing owners, etc. In order to get money directly into the hands of the locals and bypass attorneys, they paid $1500/day, 7 days a week for anyone with a boat and a running engine to help scout for oil. This worked out pretty well because they knew how to get around in the reeds, etc like no one else.

Fathers took their sons down to buy them a boat and small outboard and there were families making $3,000, $4,500, even $6,000 per day if they had 3 kids old enough to work. I met a number of guys who told me by the time they expected this to be all over, they would expand from owning 1 $80K charter boat to 3 or 4 of them.

As a corporation, I don't know much about BP, but Fred Lemond, BP Operations Mgr is from LA and was in charge at the Venice Command Center. I've never seen someone so passionate, professional and committed to getting it cleaned up - this was his home he was fighting for, and he really spared no expense. He was tireless - flying in helicopters overseeing spotting in the morning, signing millions of purchase requisitions, hiring fleets of air boats from FL, hiring oilmen from TX, staying up late to read reports - I don't think the poor guy slept a wink, and they used him in countless commercials.

If all executives were as committed to doing the right thing as he is, that blowout probably would never have occurred, and a lot of crappy things that happen in the business world would never be allowed to happen.

For the rest of the self serving, greedy executives, nothing will change until we make it too painful to cut corners, we need to make safety and quality the overriding thought in their minds, not shareholder profits.

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

The world has become a place where you are not allowed to act without going through the legal department mandated orientation and class to train you to handle dawn soap. Then and only then are you allowed to be a soap handler, but once there is a situation in front of you that you've not been trained on all work is halted and a new group think session is started with yet more training.........I work it every day and it's nearly driven me over the cliff on several occasions. The world in general needs to put their big boy pants back on.

Agreed!

Sometimes, things swing back and forth like a pendulum. I hope this current trend is just a temporary swing, and people start taking personal responsibility for their actions. If not, it's just going to get even uglier.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by socaldmax

Agreed!

Sometimes, things swing back and forth like a pendulum. I hope this current trend is just a temporary swing, and people start taking personal responsibility for their actions. If not, it's just going to get even uglier.

Boy, you got that right!!!

Reminds me of "I was just following orders," or using being drunk as an excuse for bad behavior.

A.