Russian Destroyer Frees Hijacked Tanker

[s/v Jedi]

When it comes to taxes, governments can change laws in a New York Minute but here they need years and still without results.

I would designate the whole area a training ground for AWACS recruits and target practice for air force.

cheers,
Nick.

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by David M

When you think about it, what the Somalians are doing is not a whole lot different than a government applying a tax.

The Somalians collect their taxes by threatening you with a gun. Governments collect their taxes by threat of jail time. At least with the Somalian method, there is the chance for escape.

Seriously? You are equating kidnapping and robbery with paying taxes that are necessary to support the wonderful lifestyle you are fortunate enough to enjoy in the greatest nation that has ever existed?

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by fstbttms

Seriously? You are equating kidnapping and robbery with paying taxes that are necessary to support the wonderful lifestyle you are fortunate enough to enjoy in the greatest nation that has ever existed?

I see no smiley so I suppose you're serious? If so, do you realize that your post is, in fact, a programmed response? Before replying or anything, think about that, watch a movie like "The Matrix" a couple of times, listen to some Pink Floyd music and ask yourself who it was that did the programming. Who taught you that it is important to have a career, lots of money, a good looking wife & car etc. etc. You probably come up with the answer that it was your parents, teachers at school, all the people around you. But the programming they did with you was part of their own programming... think it all through and you will end up with the government or those in power in times past. They dictate, you comply.

It is simply not true that the taxes you pay are needed to support your lifestyle because it is the money that's left after paying taxes that buys you that lifestyle. Rich people have a different lifestyle than poor people. Your taxes aren't even enough to fund the ever lasting wars that are waged abroad by your government and those only have a negative impact on your lifestyle and popularity among other nations and will put a tax burden on generations to come so that all the tax they ever pay is used just to reduce national debt.

cheers,
Nick.

[Curmudgeon]

Pirates used to be hanged. They should be summarily executed today-- call it the common law of the sea. Yes, the pirates would retaliate by killing some of the crews they are holding for ransom. But that means no ramsom money, at at some point there would be no one left. That would put an end to these guys in 6 months.

Another thing I would do is to take a naval vessel capable of carrying 4-5 helicopter gunships on a slow cruise up the Somali coast, destroying every boat I could find capable of going faster than 10-15 knots. I would sail up and down, up and down, destroying boats until there were none left.

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

It is simply not true that the taxes you pay are needed to support your lifestyle because it is the money that's left after paying taxes that buys you that lifestyle. Rich people have a different lifestyle than poor people. Your taxes aren't even enough to fund the ever lasting wars that are waged abroad by your government and those only have a negative impact on your lifestyle and popularity among other nations and will put a tax burden on generations to come so that all the tax they ever pay is used just to reduce national debt.

Maybe I worded my reply poorly. My point is that while taxes are an onerous burden and the tax system in this country certainly needs an overhaul, they allow us to enjoy services and infrastructure that few other nations can match. Most Americans (regardless of income) live a lifestyle, receive an education and take advantage of social benefits that are the envy of much of the world and that is, in large part, made possible by the wealth of our government. For an American (who is relatively wealthy when compared to 99% percent o the rest of the people on this planet) to argue that the taxes we pay in this country are the equivalent of Somali piracy is a bit disingenuous, IMHO.

[Misiu]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Pirates used to be hanged. They should be summarily executed today-- call it the common law of the sea. Yes, the pirates would retaliate by killing some of the crews they are holding for ransom. But that means no ramsom money, at at some point there would be no one left. That would put an end to these guys in 6 months.

Another thing I would do is to take a naval vessel capable of carrying 4-5 helicopter gunships on a slow cruise up the Somali coast, destroying every boat I could find capable of going faster than 10-15 knots. I would sail up and down, up and down, destroying boats until there were none left.

I agree with the tough measures. However your helicopter gunships would kill a lot of fishermen. It is hard to distinguish between pirates and others unless they search and find weapons.

I hope UN may finally be useful (from Yahoo News):

" ...Last month, the U.N. Security Council suggested creating special piracy courts to plug a gap in the world response to the costly attacks on merchant ships off Somalia's coast. ..."

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Another thing I would do is to take a naval vessel capable of carrying 4-5 helicopter gunships on a slow cruise up the Somali coast, destroying every boat I could find capable of going faster than 10-15 knots. I would sail up and down, up and down, destroying boats until there were none left.

So using the same logic, you would have no problem with the Coast Guard destroying your boat because it could conceivably be used for smuggling drugs?

[Mariness]

I wonder...since most (not all, I know) of these pirate attacks (piratings?) have been hostage-takings, with relatively few deaths so far, if we start taking the "shoot first, ask questions later" approach, aren't we encouraging them to start doing the same? Not saying it shouldn't still be considered, but isn't that at least worth a thought?
Also, the guys in the boarding parties aren't exactly the top of the line - they are often young, and desperate, and it's at least possible the problem might be better solved not by shooting a brainwashed 16-year-old, but by going after the power centers? Those guys don't lose much if we shoot the boat crew anyway - just a couple days to hire & arm more desperate teenagers.
Finally, if we claim "justice for all," "trial by peers," and all that but then refuse to extend those rights to all humans (yes, even the ones who try to hurt us) aren't we being pretty hypocritical?
In the end, hang-em-high might wash out to be the best option - but I don't think it should be the FIRST option or the automatic one.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by fstbttms

So using the same logic, you would have no problem with the Coast Guard destroying your boat because it could conceivably be used for smuggling drugs?

Well, my boat isn't capable of 10 knots.

But the short answer is yes if my boat is in Somalia and is one of those big RIBs that the pirates use. I don't think it's that difficult to distinguish between a fishing boat and a speedboat. And frankly, if some mistakes are made, that's life.

[Mariness]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Another thing I would do is to take a naval vessel capable of carrying 4-5 helicopter gunships on a slow cruise up the Somali coast, destroying every boat I could find capable of going faster than 10-15 knots. I would sail up and down, up and down, destroying boats until there were none left.

From another view - if we destroy the entire fishing fleet (surely at least some of those boats are exclusively fishers, and more probably "dual-purpose"), aren't we removing one of the few non-piracy employments they have left?

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Well, my boat isn't capable of 10 knots.

But the short answer is yes if my boat is in Somalia and is one of those big RIBs that the pirates use.

The speed of the vessel or its location is irrelevant. What you are advocating is destroying the property of individuals, regardless of whether they are guilty of a crime or not. People use sailboats like yours to commit crimes all the time. I seriously doubt you would stand idly by while the goverment blew it to bits with a helicopter-mounted .50 caliber machine gun, based on that.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Mariness

From another view - if we destroy the entire fishing fleet (surely at least some of those boats are exclusively fishers, and more probably "dual-purpose"), aren't we removing one of the few non-piracy employments they have left?

I'm not advocating destroying boats that are obviously fishing boats. There is a difference between a fishing trawler or smack and the speedboats these pirates use.

The pirates are controlled by warlords who furnish the weapons, the boats, the 225 hp outboards, the means to hold prisoners for ransom, and all the rest. To say that these are just "fishermen gone bad" is disengenuous. This piracy is organized crime of the worst sort and should be dealt with accordingly.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by fstbttms

The speed of the vessel or its location is irrelevant. What you are advocating is destroying the property of individuals, regardless of whether they are guilty of a crime or not. People use sailboats like yours to commit crimes all the time. I seriously doubt you would stand idly by while the goverment blew it to bits with a helicopter-mounted .50 caliber machine gun, based on that.

Yep, that's what happens in a war. Cities get bombed, civilians get killed and all the rest.

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

I'm not advocating destroying boats that are obviously fishing boats. There is a difference between a fishing trawler or smack and the speedboats these pirates use.

That's not what you said. You said you'd destroy every boat capable of doing 10 knots until there were none left. And most of the footage I've seen of the priate vessels indicates they frequently use the fishing "pangas" common to the Somali coast, all of which I'd guess are capable of 10 knots.

[Captain Bill]

Dare we hope that Russians sank their boats and then released them in international waters. How many Somalis can swim 12 miles or even 3.