Selling La Vagabonde?

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

it is almost unbelievable just how far you are off base.


I guess where you are you may not find a lot of engine free sailors. I know a few on wharram style catamaran and many others. But not only engine free but also without autopilot or self steering gear, only using sheet to tiller (which works completely differently on a crab claw)


Some other people don't use gps or windlass, or even cooked food. So why can't jimmy do it? Did he just not want to change his lifestyle and make some sacrifice? Is this essentially just the same root selfishness of the entire problem in an individual example?


I never used any kind of engine either so again jimmy's result is his own failure and nothing more.


An electric drive should approach 80% efficiency from solar panel to propulsion.
Ocean volt drives are not very efficient because of the same under-sized propeller limitations their efficiency is 20-30% in most cases; so basically terrible.


Finally, everyone who wants "regen" please consider again that a propeller sucks at this performance-wise, and for the same drag you would get double the power with a purpose generating turbine which is similarly bad for use as propulsion, so you need both systems unless you can easily change the propeller for the turbine and are willing to do that.

Really? Unbelievable? Trying paying closer attention to the last dozen posts. We were discussing AROUND THE WORLD on a Cat with zero emissions...So not only does your condescending comment not ring true since we have our fair share of engineless sailors also. But back to AROUND THE WORLD. perhaps you can pave the way and show Jimmy Cornell how it's done. You seem to have so much moire experience than he does.

[Franziska]

Honestly I feel Sean has a point.
If one is frugal and especially so in terms of energy consumption, it can be done.
But it is a change of lifestyle and, the risk factors are higher (example, close to a rocky shoreline, deep water, no wind. Not good but than again you would probably stay further away from the shore anyway).
Your electric engine can only run a limited time, your shower may be cold (unless you use solar heat), no freezer but perhaps a fridge, a solar oven, no AC and a wind vane instead of an electric auto pilot.
It can be done if one really has the desire for it. Having sailed smaller cats for many years, I can say it is not even very hard to adjust to it.

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

Really? Unbelievable? Trying paying closer attention to the last dozen posts. We were discussing AROUND THE WORLD on a Cat with zero emissions...So not only does your condescending comment not ring true since we have our fair share of engineless sailors also. But back to AROUND THE WORLD. perhaps you can pave the way and show Jimmy Cornell how it's done. You seem to have so much moire experience than he does.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Honestly I feel Sean has a point.
If one is frugal and especially so in terms of energy consumption, it can be done.
But it is a change of lifestyle and, the risk factors are higher (example, close to a rocky shoreline, deep water, no wind. Not good but than again you would probably stay further away from the shore anyway).
Your electric engine can only run a limited time, your shower may be cold (unless you use solar heat), no freezer but perhaps a fridge, a solar oven, no AC and a wind vane instead of an electric auto pilot.
It can be done if one really has the desire for it. Having sailed smaller cats for many years, I can say it is not even very hard to adjust to it.

...and I agree with that 100 percent

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

Really? Unbelievable? Trying paying closer attention to the last dozen posts. We were discussing AROUND THE WORLD on a Cat with zero emissions...So not only does your condescending comment not ring true since we have our fair share of engineless sailors also. But back to AROUND THE WORLD. perhaps you can pave the way and show Jimmy Cornell how it's done. You seem to have so much moire experience than he does.

You do know he’s gone around the world engineless, right?

He’s abrasive because he’s a zealot, but I’ll give him his props....he’s done it.

[Celestialsailor]

Again...we were discussing Jimmy's attempt to go Zero emissions on a Cat. Not seandepagnier, not La Vagabonde going around, not Pee Wee Herman. The last dozen or so was about jimmy';s attempt and my input that Zero emissions definitely wouldn't work for today's Cat crowd. I also made the point that somewhere in the future this will surely happen. Someone here has gone around...good for them.

Zealot:

1 : a zealous person especially : a fanatical partisan a religious zealot

2 capitalized : a member of a fanatical sect arising in Judea during the first century a.d. and militantly opposing the Roman domination of Palestine


That might be a little harsh for poor old seandepagnier. I'm sure we're both abrasive though.

[HR42]

With Cornell’s situation it just doesn’t sound right. I’ve a 42 ft sloop 630 watts of solar and a watt and sea hydrogen and I can cross an ocean without my engine (diesel)(in high latitudes). I have a fridge and a freezer, run my autopilot continuously, radar on all the time (solo) and my 720 amp hours of lithium is usually close to 100%. So I just don’t know how they could have f#$&*#d the electrical design so badly. From a sailors perspective from the outset they knew the electrical propulsion would have been for short periods. Going in and out of ports, going head to wind for sail changes perhaps etc. Every thing else would have been planned for considering the limitations of the boat I would have thought.

Just don’t get what the problem is.

It’s for sale and if it’s the situation that Cornell describes, you wouldn’t touch it.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/202...er-45-3820673/

[Joh.Ghurt]

Originally Posted by HR42

From a sailors perspective from the outset they knew the electrical propulsion would have been for short periods. Going in and out of ports, going head to wind for sail changes perhaps etc. Every thing else would have been planned for considering the limitations of the boat I would have thought.

From what I found out about the issue was in the end the availability of propulsion the way it's expected for boat of this price.

On one hand, it's perfectly fine for a couple of sea-gypsies in their minimum-budget boat to sail at 1,5 knots to enter the anchorage and it takes you 3 hours for the last few miles. But when you plunk down a million for your boat, you'd feel cheated if you can't even properly motor across the bay.

[Dave_S]

I don't think Cornell's intention is to see if it can be done....

It's been done.

I assume his intention is to see if it's practical on modern cruising boats in the conditions you might expect to deal with without waiting for just the right conditions. That's what I'll want to see.

My understanding of what happened...
They had to motor for a couple of days at around 4kns because the wind dropped out unexpectedly after which they had to turn the motors off as they dropped down to below 20% on their 56kwh battery bank and drifted untill the wind filled in.

When it did they sailed with most electrical shut down, including fridges and freezers, no heating of food etc and couldn't make meaningful regeneration sailing at an average of over 8kn for 10 hours. That's when he pulled the pin and took it back. On the sail back, after topping up at a marina they sàiled in ideal conditions at around 12kns and held power all the way.

To make this work for the average Joe, it has to work on a comfortable cruising boat not a heavily downgraded barebones frugal machine.

So IMHO the boat needs to be bigger, lighter and faster, able to sail at better than wind speed while regenerating and able to sail at acceptable cruising speeds in 3kn TWS so you don't need the motors as often.

P.S. the boat had different props on each motor. One better suited for regeneration and the other better suited for propulsion. The regen prop was a smart prop and adjusted it's pitch as the conditions changed. It fluffed around so much that it was worse than the propulsion prop so some gains should be available in improving the software on that.

[Franziska]

The problem seems, as often, if things need to happen on a time schedule.

If that would not have been the case, you would certainly not try to run on an electric boat for several days with 4kn.

You rarely have completly windless days for several consecutive days in normal cruising grounds.
Even if you have, well, than be patient and do not run for days on engine.
It's pointless to use up much more power over extended periods if you can not regenerate it as much.

Only real reason to run under engine is an emergency or to escape from an approaching storm.
But even then, their boat is a boat who should be up to a lot of bad weather.

The boat may be heavy, but I am sure it can still sail slowly along in light winds.

Regarding frugal, not having an AC or freezer is not frugal. It can be done, easily.

Originally Posted by Dave_S

I don't think Cornell's intention is to see if it can be done....

It's been done.

I assume his intention is to see if it's practical on modern cruising boats in the conditions you might expect to deal with without waiting for just the right conditions. That's what I'll want to see.

My understanding of what happened...
They had to motor for a couple of days at around 4kns because the wind dropped out unexpectedly after which they had to turn the motors off as they dropped down to below 20% on their 56kwh battery bank and drifted untill the wind filled in.

When it did they sailed with most electrical shut down, including fridges and freezers, no heating of food etc and couldn't make meaningful regeneration sailing at an average of over 8kn for 10 hours. That's when he pulled the pin and took it back. On the sail back, after topping up at a marina they sàiled in ideal conditions at around 12kns and held power all the way.

To make this work for the average Joe, it has to work on a comfortable cruising boat not a heavily downgraded barebones frugal machine.

So IMHO the boat needs to be bigger, lighter and faster, able to sail at better than wind speed while regenerating and able to sail at acceptable cruising speeds in 3kn TWS so you don't need the motors as often.

P.S. the boat had different props on each motor. One better suited for regeneration and the other better suited for propulsion. The regen prop was a smart prop and adjusted it's pitch as the conditions changed. It fluffed around so much that it was worse than the propulsion prop so some gains should be available in improving the software on that.

[Simon.Sails]

I agree with Franziska here, Jimmy Cornell simply overloaded the boat with so much stuff while ignoring the advice he received on needing a generator as a backup. From the article(s) I read he has:

• "water heater, hot plate, oven and breadmaker, all of which run off 220V."

• "two fridge-freezers"

• "B&G Zeus3 is at the heart of a comprehensive system, which also includes a working autopilot and a backup. The latter has its own Triton display, GPS and wireless wind sensor, and is part of an emergency circuit entirely protected from the rest of the boat"

• Iridium Certus (..) . Throughout the voyage we shall automatically send data on wind speed and direction, barometric pressure, water and air temperature, to the World Meteorological Organisation

• A late addition to my range of electronics is OSCAR, an anti-collision device that detects floating objects up to 500m ahead, whether small boats, whales, containers or any other flotsam that could present a danger. It greatly improves safety both by day and night, and is the first navigational aid system based on artificial vision and intelligence.

• lightweight OCT 330, built in New Zealand by Offshore Cruising Tenders. It is equipped with a Torqeedo 1103C electric outboard

https://www.yachtingworld.com/featur...tamaran-128880

Added to that he only has 1.3KW solar (many catamaran cruisers have more with much fewer electrical appliances)

And two Oceanvolt props "Initially, I had been told by Oceanvolt that we could expect an average charge of 600W at 6 knots and 800W at 8 knots, which sounded quite reasonable. But once Aventura got into her stride, we were achieving double those values [because he's got two props...], and much more at higher speeds."

So the electric motors seem to regenerate just fine for most boats, but not one overloaded with power-hungry gadgets and appliances without a generator. The huge battery pack is probably really heavy as well, with an impact on his ability to sail in light winds...

He disregarded the advice he received (either needs to manage his consumption or add a generator), and motored for days on end on the batteries. The more I read about it the more baffled I am why people take this attempt as the benchmark for an electric cruiser catamaran.

[Dave_S]

IMHO

I don't think the issue was that they had to motor for a couple of days, more at issue was once the power was down they were unable to replenish it at anywhere close to a reasonable rate. I think he said it was not sustainable. You would expect 8kn for 10hrs should give you a reasonable return otherwise you have no market. Even with the every day electrics off they couldn't manage it. I agree lots of boats can do without AC but a freezer for a circumnavigation or even coastal cruising, I wouldn't go without. Biggest hit might be the induction cooking.

I think where we differ is the difference between can it be done without fossil fuels or will the majority population buy it. We all know it can be done but they have clearly demonstrated it's not ready for people with medium requirements, even in concept, for volume sales, the numbers just aren't there.

Will it suit La Vagabonde? Probably, very experienced sailors in what I expect will be a very capable boat but I suspect they are being told the OceanVolt story with advantages and I hope they will check out the numbers themselves. I also expect they will have a generator which they will try very hard not to turn on.

A personal opinion only but I think OV are happy to tell the electric propulsion story with significant advantages. They have been at this game for a long time now so rushing it is not a good excuse for such a high profile failure that fell so far short of even a half-assed result by any reasonable measure. It was almost a worst possible outcome event watched by the world of a highly respected world cruiser who had to abandon his trip very soon after departure solely because the power requirements were not sustainable.

Everyone deserves a second chance so October will provide some evidence either way. I hope it is a huge success but I think it is wishfull thinking. If I were a betting man I'd bet they will go their seperate ways before then.

Originally Posted by Franziska

The problem seems, as often, if things need to happen on a time schedule.

If that would not have been the case, you would certainly not try to run on an electric boat for several days with 4kn.

You rarely have completly windless days for several consecutive days in normal cruising grounds.
Even if you have, well, than be patient and do not run for days on engine.
It's pointless to use up much more power over extended periods if you can not regenerate it as much.

Only real reason to run under engine is an emergency or to escape from an approaching storm.
But even then, their boat is a boat who should be up to a lot of bad weather.

The boat may be heavy, but I am sure it can still sail slowly along in light winds.

Regarding frugal, not having an AC or freezer is not frugal. It can be done, easily.

[Franziska]

Sounds almost as if he aimed for driving the car full blast into the wall.
Meaning aiming for failing an experiment.
Bizarre even more if this happens to a sailor of his experience.
My guess there were some driving factors behind this which we do not know.

Someone with a more realistic approach will come and make it happen.

I doubt that the failure had something to do with the boat itself.

Originally Posted by Simon.Sails

I agree with Franziska here, Jimmy Cornell simply overloaded the boat with so much stuff while ignoring the advice he received on needing a generator as a backup. From the article(s) I read he has:

• "water heater, hot plate, oven and breadmaker, all of which run off 220V."

• "two fridge-freezers"

• "B&G Zeus3 is at the heart of a comprehensive system, which also includes a working autopilot and a backup. The latter has its own Triton display, GPS and wireless wind sensor, and is part of an emergency circuit entirely protected from the rest of the boat"

• Iridium Certus (..) . Throughout the voyage we shall automatically send data on wind speed and direction, barometric pressure, water and air temperature, to the World Meteorological Organisation

• A late addition to my range of electronics is OSCAR, an anti-collision device that detects floating objects up to 500m ahead, whether small boats, whales, containers or any other flotsam that could present a danger. It greatly improves safety both by day and night, and is the first navigational aid system based on artificial vision and intelligence.

• lightweight OCT 330, built in New Zealand by Offshore Cruising Tenders. It is equipped with a Torqeedo 1103C electric outboard

https://www.yachtingworld.com/featur...tamaran-128880

Added to that he only has 1.3KW solar (many catamaran cruisers have more with much fewer electrical appliances)

And two Oceanvolt props "Initially, I had been told by Oceanvolt that we could expect an average charge of 600W at 6 knots and 800W at 8 knots, which sounded quite reasonable. But once Aventura got into her stride, we were achieving double those values [because he's got two props...], and much more at higher speeds."

So the electric motors seem to regenerate just fine for most boats, but not one overloaded with power-hungry gadgets and appliances without a generator. The huge battery pack is probably really heavy as well, with an impact on his ability to sail in light winds...

He disregarded the advice he received (either needs to manage his consumption or add a generator), and motored for days on end on the batteries. The more I read about it the more baffled I am why people take this attempt as the benchmark for an electric cruiser catamaran.

[fc59]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Honestly I feel Sean has a point.
If one is frugal and especially so in terms of energy consumption, it can be done.
But it is a change of lifestyle and, the risk factors are higher (example, close to a rocky shoreline, deep water, no wind. Not good but than again you would probably stay further away from the shore anyway).
Your electric engine can only run a limited time, your shower may be cold (unless you use solar heat), no freezer but perhaps a fridge, a solar oven, no AC and a wind vane instead of an electric auto pilot.
It can be done if one really has the desire for it. Having sailed smaller cats for many years, I can say it is not even very hard to adjust to it.

You are only half right. You completely forgot one point : the most important one : PRICE.

On a 10 000$ boat, one will be happy to have a shower only when it rains, use a solar oven and use a wind vane autopilot. And of course use a 1000$ electric propulsion system with all its limitations. Unfortunately even a smaller torqueedo system is well above 1000$ (2.0T + battery). And I do not even speak of charging system.

But if your electric setup reach 100 000$, and you need over 50 000$ of sails, with a 100 000$ carbon mast to increase sailing ability because of limited electric endurance, you end up with a over 1000 000$ boat. And at such a price point, air conditioning, freezer, water maker, dishwasher and other amenities are fully MANDATORY.

[NPCampbell]

Originally Posted by fc59

But if your electric setup reach 100 000$, and you need over 50 000$ of sails, with a 100 000$ carbon mast to increase sailing ability because of limited electric endurance, you end up with a over 1000 000$ boat. And at such a price point, air conditioning, freezer, water maker, dishwasher and other amenities are fully MANDATORY.

This is exactly the problem. If I buy a mil+ cat, I want amenities and I want redundancy. A massive solar array provides about 4 HP per hour under the best conditions. Sorry, but I am not risking a mil on a boat that can't power for the better part of a day at max speed against a current and headwind. Just getting back to the marina in the ICW can require this.

Sure, I can put a 6000 pound 100 kW generator on board but that still gives me a diesel engine, diesel weight, diesel smell, diesel sound and a single point of failure. Electric motors are sound, they work and they're reliable ... but energy storage isn't. When we solve that problem I'm on board.

[Franziska]

Well even if you buy a million dollar boat you only get what can be delivered for that money.

If expectations are not met it is often unrealistic client expectations teamed with a lack of the proper amount of client education.
Sometimes this happens if you really really want to please a high key client and have him not go to the competitor.
The results are almost always disappointing as can perhaps be seen in this case.

Underpromise overdeliver is a much better guideline than the other way around.

Still I would be surprised if knowledgeable sailors like Cornell or the Vaga folks fall for unrealistic expectations.

Originally Posted by NPCampbell

This is exactly the problem. If I buy a mil+ cat, I want amenities and I want redundancy. A massive solar array provides about 4 HP per hour under the best conditions. Sorry, but I am not risking a mil on a boat that can't power for the better part of a day at max speed against a current and headwind. Just getting back to the marina in the ICW can require this.

Sure, I can put a 6000 pound 100 kW generator on board but that still gives me a diesel engine, diesel weight, diesel smell, diesel sound and a single point of failure. Electric motors are sound, they work and they're reliable ... but energy storage isn't. When we solve that problem I'm on board.