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Jim D · 08-05-2010, 09:28

I believe all the causes being put forth on this thread, regardless of their basis or their degree of excitement, would be substantially better represented if those who type them up would learn to hit a return key about every 4th sentence.

That's my opinion.

And I'm sticking to it.

Jim

flysci · 08-05-2010, 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by hummingway

There is no mother nature, no god, wood sprites, fairies or leprechauns and self interest is the dominant force in the world. Survival is not take what you need at all costs; survival is leave enough for others, especially future generations because it is our genetic material that is truly valuable.

Hummingway, I think I love you. The best points yet. Humans caring for humans, so we all can survive.

I thought the concept of corporate greed being the engine of all progress had been pretty well de-bunked. I guess some are still hanging on.

Do we want humans to survive into the future living with some dignity and peace? Or would we be happy to have the planet "cleanse" itself of us and go on? I for one think humans are one of the most fascinating and awe inspiring (though also problematic) creatures this planet has ever produced and would hate to see them go extinct - all self interest aside, of course! Haha.

Margo

**James S** · 08-05-2010, 10:10

Yes we are keeping a very close eye on this thread and it has gotten close to the edge.
Lets keep the personal attacks out and we can all enjoy learning from our fellow members and getting some in site into their thoughts and feelings without alienating anyone or polarizing our crew.
Thanks all.

Puddlefish · 08-05-2010, 10:27

My problem with debating on the internet is that people insist on putting words in my mouth, attribute positions to me that I don't agree with, get all sad when they've misunderstood me. It's a flaw of text based communications.

When I say that I believe in A, it doesn't necessarily mean that I therefore believe in B. Perhaps you might see a causal connection from A to B. I might indeed believe in B, or I might not. Then the next person comes along and attributes B to me and expects me to defend it.

Anyone who still wants to call me a bad person, feel free to send me a private message and I'll eventually get back to you.

**James S** · 08-05-2010, 10:48

The advantage to this format for discussions is that the transcript is there for all to see.

conachair · 08-05-2010, 11:29

To put a different angle on it, nowhere in the media or google does there seem to be anyone trying to predict what *will* happen, given the nature of the human animal. Plenty discussion about what should happen, live green, don´t drive a big car. But all the graphs and figures point to nothing happening, on a species level it seems that humans are incapable of change.
Klaatu was right.
So if you have that as a basis for a model I wonder what the results would be. Gloomy no doubt. Who can tell.
But even if that is so we can still do our best and maybe feel a bit better having done so.

And I hit the return key several times

DeepFrz · 08-05-2010, 11:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Puddlefish

id you know an heirloom tomato is nutritionally equivalent to a corporate farmed tomato, but requires something like 9-50 times the acreage?

Sorry folks, don't want to mess up the thread with trivia but I couldn't let this go by.

Sorry Puddlefish, but I think you have bought a load of artificial fertilizer that sure smells like bull.

As someone who has prepared the soil for heirloom tomatoes, planted them, staked them, tied them, suckered them and picked them I can tell you two things the corporations have bred out of tomatoes: flavor and manual labor. I can't definitively speak about nutrition but I can speak about flavor and it is gone. I absolutely know that the reason for the changes in tomato is so that they all come ready at the same time so that they can be machine harvested. When I was a young lad and picked tomatoes in the fields we would stop for a break and joyfully eat a beautiful big and delicious tomato right there in the field. Big, juicy, tasty and nutritious. By the way, growing a crop of tomatoes was back breaking work, but very satisfying.

Your statement about 9-14 times the acreage is also not correct. I would be surprised if there was a doubling of yield between heirloom and current production.

I for one think (and this is just my opinion) that the ONLY thing the corporations care about is profit and that they don't care if the product is as nutritional as the original or not. But they sure know how to spread the bull...

Puddlefish · 08-05-2010, 13:24

I stand behind my tomato factoids, with one exception. I should have specified organic heirloom tomatoes. Heirloom tomatoes are indeed far yummier, and of course they've removed the manual labor from the equation.

The commercial tomatoes also have a thicker skin so machines can harvest them, they've also been engineered to be disease and pest resistant. They have an amazing yield to acre ratio of surviving fruit. These are basic facts and you can find out about them on any number of reference sites.

One can make the argument that heirloom tomatoes are more naturally diverse and it might be a bad idea to limit the natural selection via engineering, but I think there are seed banks and certainly a lot of smaller farmers still keeping the natural crops healthy.

One can make the argument that the bulk of the machine picked tomatoes go toward ketchups, salsas and generally more processed and unhealthy foods. I'm a bit uncertain what the social significance of this however. I don't think I should be the one to tell people not to eat processed foods.

So, if you'll allow me to correct to organic heirloom, I think you'll agree that the acreage comparison is accurate. I believe I got my data from the "Modern Marvels" Harvesting or Harvesting 2 episode. I can neither confirm nor deny that The History Channel is owned by "the man."

Given my choice I will always spend the extra few bucks to get a delicious ripe heirloom tomato in season.

**boatman61** · 08-05-2010, 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by James S

The advantage to this format for discussions is that the transcript is there for all to see.

Awww... James.. I was having fun..
Ok.. no more wind up posts.. I'll try and toe the line...

Christian Van H · 08-05-2010, 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by s/v 'Faith'

An excellent description for the majority of the posts in this thread...

Without insulting any poster on this thread, I challenge you to elaborate on this comment. I truly do not know what posts you are referring to...and would love to know why you posted this...

**boatman61** · 08-05-2010, 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

Wow, I'm very surprised. Not one comment from an upscale, nature loving crowd such as this. I would think this presentation would spark outrage.

Back to the original topic... no I'm not outraged at all, he's talking straight from the shoulder...
I had the good fortune to go to Antigua in the late 60's courtesy of the RN.. we anchored of St Johns which only had a wooden landing pier/jetty in those days. it was awesome..
At night shoals of fish would be attracted by the ships lights.. you could see the bottom... barracuda and sharks as well..
Some way outside St Johns was a place called.. imaginatively.. "The Caribbean Beach Club".. on shore leave we'd head out there for the day and swim out to some reefs 2 or 3 hundred metres of the beach.. wow..
My next visit was in 2000.. the change was stunning... it had just about all gone..
Was it increased tourism overloading systems incapable of coping and the oceans was the handiest dump... done it for centuries so it'll be OK... Probably..
Mans biggest danger to man is not greed, not even selfishness or lack of intelligence... its more thoughtlessness, his inability to think possible consequences through properly..
Its always the easy obvious solution, like the cane toads in Oz.. or mink to the UK.. if it works great.. if it does not we'll fix it.
Trouble is.... more often than not we can't..

Christian Van H · 08-05-2010, 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61

Mans biggest danger to man is not greed, not even selfishness or lack of intelligence... its more thoughtlessness, his inability to think possible consequences through properly..
Its always the easy obvious solution, like the cane toads in Oz.. or mink to the UK.. if it works great.. if it does not we'll fix it.
Trouble is.... more often than not we can't..

Excellent post Boatman! The true definition of "Smug" might be to claim to understand the workings of nature well enough to effect change and know the outcome. I would first believe someone who claimed to know the complete workings of the human brain. After all, the system is simpler than the web of symbiosis in nature we know so little about.

Therapy · 08-05-2010, 19:28

Christian,

I know the answer to every problem.

Just ask me and do exactly as I say.

Everything will work out just fine.

I won't even charge you much.