D.I.Y or Hire a Professional?

[TheThunderbird]

Rigging, hydraulics, electronics , refrigeration, mast & hull...to the specialist


Woodmaker and metal carpenter work upon my design, and l assemble

[jkindredpdx]

I prefer DIY... I want to know how everything works and fits together so I can fix it in an emergency. I'd rather learn during the day at the marina then on a cold wet windy night at sea.

[ramblinrod]

There are good and bad in everything, including contractors and customers.

I am in the business of helping people enjoy their boats, by providing vessel maintenance, repair, and improvement services.

I don't really care why a customer wishes to hire my company. It may be due to their lack of skills, tools, time, confidence, agility, or desire to DIY.

We support DIYers in every way we can, providing seminars, advice, and materials, to help them do it correctly.

We treat every customer, regardless of the size or age of their boat, with the utmost respect.

All they have to do to receive excellent service, is to treat us in kind.

Our customers range from: a 15 minute telephone consultation for a DIYer to address a specific issue, to a "Here's the spare keys, take care of whatever it needs and send me the bill", for as long as they own the boat.

If possible, we offer good, better, and best options, enabling the customer to choose the solution that meets their quality, speed, and cost requirements.

We have great customers, and in return, they have a great marine service provider.

[SV Windrush II]

A lot of great replies. Sounds like most of you have had similar experiences as what I have had in the past.
Ramblinrod, to bad you are not closer to me haha. But yes I think the biggest challenge is when I do need help, finding someone that I can trust that is experienced in the specific job is a real challenge. I have known to chase off several so called "Journeyman" guys that were creating more problems than what they were supposed to fix. But I had my favorite guy in Seattle that was very good and was extremely meticulous and would just help me when I absolutely needed him.
But where I am now it's not possible to find anyone like him.

I usually just need help when I physically cannot do it myself and I'm slowly getting better at wiring. I think my organizational skills with wiring are the biggest challenge. It's easy to connect wires to components, but wiring can turn into a rats nest quickly if there is not a good layout plan

[ramblinrod]

I cringe every time I see a post about DIY marine electrical wiring on a forum.

I am an electronic engineering technician educated at a respected community college.

I worked in the field for 30 years.

Before I started my company, and studied marine electrical standards and received my certification, I thought the work I was performing on my own boats was "acceptable".

Boy was I wrong.

After 30 years of working with very sophisticated computers and process control equipment, when I started studying ABYC and NMEA standards I was "shocked" at what I didn't know about marine electrical wiring.

I now inspect, design, configure, install, troubleshoot, and repair marine electrical wiring for a living.

The rats nests of wiring I see every day is proof positive that most boat owners should not perform marine electrical wiring on their own (except in case of emergency, after which they should have it inspected and corrected by a pro).

Every boat I have inspected that the owner was positive was done correctly, has had serious wiring faults. Every single one; no exception.

In my experience:

- Most boats that would be considered to have excellent wiring by most, have at least 10 wiring faults.

- The average boat has at least 50.

- The worst I have seen likely had over 1000.

The owner, an avid marine wiring DIYer, swore it was safe and was $#%$% at the surveyor who started the report, "The AC system is a mess", followed by 3 pages of electrical wiring faults. (I found many, many more, as I worked through the boat.)

So no, based on my experience, boat owners rarely if ever perform marine wiring properly. The proof is in the resultant wiring.

Why? Because except in rare occasions, they don't have years of education, research, skills development, and experience in marine electrical wiring standards and practices.

While marine electrical wiring isn't brain surgery (though it can be way more complicated at times), would you prefer to have your brain surgery performed by a properly trained professional who has over 1000 living post op patients and no related deaths, or an insurance salesman who watched a you tube video, skimmed a book, and asked advice on a public forum?

When you buy a used boat, all too often, you are acquiring marine electrical wiring more closely related to the latter. (Not intended to disparage insurance salesmen.) ;-)

My best advise; even if you are absolutely positive the wiring on your boat is safe, even if it is brand new, have a real pro (certified marine electrical technician, and nothing less) inspect it.

It may cost you a few hundred bucks. (Cheap insurance.)

I assure you, though you may not have been electrocuted yet, you most definitely will be shocked. ;-)

When he declares your electrical systems unsafe; LISTEN!

Just because the AC system hasn't electrocuted someone yet, or the DC system hasn't burned the boat to the waterline yet, doesn't make it safe; there is always tomorrow.

[a64pilot]

I'm paying someone else to do a bottom job right now, because I work full time and a bottom job is not a high skilled thing, when we are cruising if I can hire kids to do it under my supervision, I will or otherwise I will likely do it myself.
If I were building a house, I'd pay someone else to do the framing, put on the roof and hang sheetrock, cause that is all grunt work, but I would do the wiring and plumbing, because that is not hard, but it's expensive to have it done, I have hung sheetrock once or twice, never again

[SVTatia]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

I cringe every time I see a post about DIY marine electrical wiring on a forum....

In my experience:

- Most boats that would be considered to have excellent wiring by most, have at least 10 wiring faults.

- The average boat has at least 50.

- The worst I have seen likely had over 1000.

...

Rod, I like your attitude on the previous post, and I may visit you one of these days.

As for the electrics, I hear you, and I don't disagree, but it begs the question:

Is there a perfectly wired boat?

Interesting enough, there are not too many cases of fire by electrical fault, or so it seems, because the Insurance people wants more money to insure a boat with propane, but cares not about anything electrical..

I mean no disrespect, but if I hire you and I fix everything you suggest, then have the boat re inspected by another specialist, I wonder what the result would be.... Just saying, not being ironic.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by SVTatia

... Is there a perfectly wired boat? ..

And how many of the faults were factory?

I know with my boats, I've seen a few PO additions that were pretty shaky, but I can also point to factory or "professional" additions that are nearly as bad.

This professional windlass contractor install looked good from the panel side, but not so much from the locker side. How easy would it be for stored stuff to know a slip-on connector loose or cause a dead short across un-insulated posts?

[44'cruisingcat]

Built the entire boat by myself. Faired it, painted it, wired it, plumbed it, fitted the motors.... launched it, built the rig and fitted it (the last two with help from friends)...


Bits I didn't do - I didn't make the sails, and I paid a gasfitter to do the gas install, although I "roughed in" the gas plumbing.


Plenty of people do this: https://diy-yachts.com/forum/index.p...6b3b8a9d28fedb

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by SVTatia

Is there a perfectly wired boat? :

Probably not.

Interesting enough, there are not too many cases of fire by electrical fault, or so it seems, because the Insurance people wants more money to insure a boat with propane, but cares not about anything electrical.

About 15 years ago, we were called by the marina that a boat blew up near ours, and we should come check our boat. No damage to us. A propane leak and defective bilge pump wiring (a notorious fault). Took out 2 boats, damaged 5 others, and wrecked a section of dock.

10 years ago, a boat at a marina in the North Channel went up in flames at the dock, as we were pulling in, while a battery was being changed. Burned to the waterline.


5 years ago, we had just been serviced at a marina fuel dock. My wife asked if I wanted to delay departure so she could grab us some burgers at the restaurant. I suggested we just go. Part way out the channel I heard a loud boom. Looked back and the vessel that was in front of us at the fuel dock was in flames with a large cloud of billowing smoke. Fuel leak, and an electrical fault.

2 years ago, a friend suffered second degree burns to his right wrist when connecting a battery. He also suffered second degree burns to his left hand removing a very hot watch that contacted the other battery post and the wrench he had on the first battery post.

Electrical fires happen on boats way more often than one would expect.

If you want a real eye opener, google "Boat Electrical Fire" and click on images.

I mean no disrespect, but if I hire you and I fix everything you suggest, then have the boat re inspected by another specialist, I wonder what the result would be....

Well this is what I learned in my years of software validation.

If I find 90% of the faults on first inspection, that is as good as we can hope.

- 1 fault, I may have found the only one.

- 10 faults, I may have missed one.

- 1000 faults, I may have missed 10.

- 1000 faults, I may have missed 100.

You get my drift.

So the answer is, "The vessel will be safer after a pro inspection and subsequent repairs, but it is really unreasonable to expect it to be completely fault free."

After all, the owner missed 100% of them.

And yes, different pros (craftsmen) will have different styles and preferences.

If I inspect another pros work, I will likely see things I would have done differently, but if he has done his job right, I should not be able to find anything about the work that is non-compliant to standards in any serious way. And the same should be true in reverse toward my work.

If one isn't intimately familiar with the standards and industry practice, how could one possibly perform marine wiring correctly and safely?

The answer is they can't; they're just hopeful it works when needed, and someday they don't get a call from the marina. Some feel even if they do, after all, that's what insurance is for. (At least that may be their position until the vessel is lost or a person is hurt.) When I meet a new slip neighbour like this, I ask to move my boat. It's hard to get 3 somewhat safe boats between me and guy like this.

The funny thing is, I see the same DIYers working on their mast lights in the yard every year. Every year. For 5 years. Or more.

Instead of that telling them they don't know what the heck they are doing, they think they are some kind of expert because every year they get their mast lights working (until somewhere around mid season maybe).

So then, someone else in the yard who is having mast light trouble, walks over and asks the first guy for advice, because obviously he knows what he's doing, because he is always doing electrical work.

It's truly a crazy thing, but I see it all the time.

The same people are sometimes reluctant to change a receptacle in their house, but on the boat, "go for it".

Not that I think unqualified people should mess with their house wiring, but if the house catches fire, one can just step out the door, across the street, and waits 2 minutes for the fire trucks to get there from 10 blocks away. (Yes, I am making way too light of a potentially life altering and threatening situation, but for a good point.)

Whereas if a boat catches fire, it needs to be a dang big boat to get even 30 feet away, while still standing on the flammables that are already on fire. The water better be warm, and y'all better be dang good swimmers.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by thinwater

And how many of the faults were factory?

I know with my boats, I've seen a few PO additions that were pretty shaky, but I can also point to factory or "professional" additions that are nearly as bad.

This professional windlass contractor install looked good from the panel side, but not so much from the locker side. How easy would it be for stored stuff to know a slip-on connector loose or cause a dead short across un-insulated posts?

So what were the qualifications of the installer?

[barnakiel]

I hire pros where jobs are out of normal average joe zone. Dentists, swimming coaches, guitar teachers, etc.

When it all boils down to bronze bushings, I simply take out the old ones, make a drawing and walk to the next machining shop asking for new ones in such and such material. I bring in the material when I can to avoid swindlers.

Then again, my boat is very small and all systems are very simple. Perhaps that's why I can do as I do.

b.

[fryewe]

Hire someone or do it myself?

If I pay someone to do it, by definition that makes him a professional.

But paying someone doesn't mean he's more qualified nor more meticulous nor schedules the work to be completed more promptly than I can get it done.

I'm retired and I have time,

so...

...if I can do it, I do do it.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Built the entire boat by myself. Faired it, painted it, wired it, plumbed it, fitted the motors.... launched it, built the rig and fitted it (the last two with help from friends)...


Bits I didn't do - I didn't make the sails, and I paid a gasfitter to do the gas install, although I "roughed in" the gas plumbing.


Plenty of people do this: https://diy-yachts.com/forum/index.p...6b3b8a9d28fedb

No, I'd say your in the 1% of boat owners, I think very few actually build as large and complex a boat as you have.
I know I would never try it, I'm just too lazy

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by fryewe

Hire someone or do it myself?

If I pay someone to do it, by definition that makes him a professional.

But paying someone doesn't mean he's more qualified nor more meticulous nor schedules the work to be completed more promptly than I can get it done.

I'm retired and I have time,

so...

...if I can do it, I do do it.

Just because someone accepts pay does not make them a "professional".

If they are not properly qualified, it makes them an unqualified person with a temporary job. Hopefully they don't wreck something or hurt someone.

If you want to hire a "pro" to perform boat work, ask to see their professional accreditation and commercial insurance certificates.

A "professional" will be more than happy to display them, because they have so much time and money invested in them.