How the Commercial Guys See Us

[Pelagic]

I laughed when I read this, but is this how "yachtsmen" are perceived by the commercial mariner?

https://gcaptain.com/you-should-deliver-yachts/

[Shrew]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I laughed when I read this, but is this how "yachtsmen" are perceived by the commercial mariner?

https://gcaptain.com/you-should-deliver-yachts/

I'm not sure that 'Delivery Captain' and 'Commercial Mariner' are completely synonymous.

In the story, the owner had somewhat unreasonable expectations due to lack of experience. He hardly seemed unreasonable. What seems a bit more unreasonable is the reaction of the Delivery Captain.

How was all of this NOT part of a pre-departure briefing?? Billing, Schedule, Alternative Routing, weather. It seems to me the delivery captain did a poor job of communicating expectations to the customer.

[Pauls]

Yeah. In the past I worked as a commercial skipper. "Yachtie" was a derogatory term. Based on the fact that a lot of them were poor seamen. Of course there were marvelous exceptions - guys that were really competent. But they were not the norm.

[S/V Illusion]

Commercial mariners encompasses a lot of vocations including the clowns who use black floats to mark their lobster pots, often in narrow channels.

[Pelagic]

A bias against yachtsmen does exist.

When getting my watchkeeping mates commercial licence in the 80's I remember being quizzed by two Examiners at my Orals.
Was surprised that it was two, since normally one, but the reason became quite clear.

A great deal of my sea time was on large yacht deliveries offshore as a captain and one very large high profile yacht that they felt I should not have commanded.
.
One Examiner even said that yacht time should not be counted as Sea Time. since "all you guys do is sit and drink gin & tonics"

They drilled me pretty hard for about an hour trying to find sufficient reasons to fail me, even getting into celestial which was not part of the WKM syllabus, but in the end, I had won them over.

After that, getting the higher licences were easier at Orals since they became more supportive (even offering me a future job) but the stereotype owner/yachtie of this article brought back memories of old jealous commercial farts that did not realise how tough it can be out there on a small yacht.

[zeehag]

i mostly hold with the commercial merchant mariner captains on most yotties. my sail instructor was a merchant marine captain who also sailed tallships in navy. he knewhis stuff, unlike most of the so called masters of yots.
i laugh at the pride a 50 tonner spews in all subjects and arenas as that individual stumbles and falls on reality. the unfortunate issue occurs when one of these inexperienced yotties without instruction nor by your leave insists on trying to help in something he knows nothing about and damn near kills you in process while spewing how long he has been "doing this" which is a constant variable.

[Lepke]

There's a reason for the bias. It comes with experience. Most commercial operators are operating every day in all conditions. It's rare to find one that hasn't been involved in a search or rescue for some yachtie, lost or disabled for no good reason. And it's entertaining to watch many of them dock.

On the other hand, delivery captains are just some guy with the ability to pass a test and has some sea time determined by his own records.
In the story, the captain was at fault for running out of fuel. You don't assume anything in a strange boat.

[tsenator]

The story really didn't have much to do with "Yachties" and "Commercial Mariners" at ALL -- This was a story about a Delivery Captain and a pompous idiot "boat owner" .... I would not even call the boat owner a 'yachtsman' AT ALL !



I loved this one LOL --> He stood up. “You need to find another delivery captain,” he said, and walked out.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I laughed when I read this, but is this how "yachtsmen" are perceived by the commercial mariner?

The perception is much worse. Recreational boaters are considered to be forces of nature who will act unpredictably.

On the other hand the protagonist of the article made some choices I would not have made. Leaving from Maine I would certainly not plan on going through the Cape Cod Canal, particularly with inexperienced crew. Stay in deep water with nothing to hit. I wouldn't have gone two-up. More crew. Don't ever trust gauges. Don't leave port, or head offshore, without pressing up all tanks. Log engine starts and stops and calculate actual fuel consumption.

Running out of fuel so close to the inlet there was no need for a tow, only fuel. Interestingly the USCG no longer trains boat crews to transfer fuel but TowboatUS and SeaTow do it regularly. Most commercial ships can also. That evolution in a sea is an experience. *grin* Note that delivery skippers should carry their own commercial towing insurance. Their personal policy for their own boat doesn't cover if you are being paid and the owner's doesn't cover if s/he isn't aboard. My commercial TowboatUS towing policy is the only big check I write each year that doesn't make me cringe.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

the owner's doesn't cover if s/he isn't aboard.

This has not been my experience. Of the hundreds of deliveries I've done my resume was provided to the owners underwriters who then approved me on the owners policy without the owner onboard. I refuse delivery jobs with owners onboard
(I learned that the hard way).

[Pelagic]

I agree Auspicioius, there is so much unsaid in that story, which reflects badly on a self proclaimed novice delivery skipper and an impatient and frustrated owner

It sounded like a last minute job, due to yard repairs where he failed to do his predeparture checks and get to know the attitude of the owner, who happened to be his crew.


I find it strange that a delivery captain would need to provide "tow boat insurance".
Because of my location in Asia That concept is pretty foreign to me.

One there is no service and two, I would expect the Owner of the boat to cover that financial risk.

But i guess, where that service exists, it is a good marketing backup for a professional delivery skipper.

The reality is that there are good and bad skippers in both commercial and yachting. It is just that commercial companies tend to manage their boats and crews much better than the pleasure boater with required standards of training and testing

[Knotical]

Interesting article.

Seems like both the delivery captain and the owner were novices at their roles - captain's first delivery and owner's first yacht. If I was delivering for this owner I would have walked away the moment he mentioned the half-day pay, lowballing and acting cheap are best left for other situations. It seems the captain wanted to prove himself after he was prodded to take on his first job as a delivery skipper. The captain seemed like a competent sailor and appropriately ignored the owner during the voyage.

The second instance I would have walked away (after bringing the boat to a dock of course) was when the owner expressed unhappiness at the change of plans due to a low-pressure system out east. Weather plays a huge role in a sailors life this owner seems very reckless.

The captain made the right decision and walked away after the dinner, I guess he should have gone out to dinner with him before taking the job

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

This has not been my experience. Of the hundreds of deliveries I've done my resume was provided to the owners underwriters who then approved me on the owners policy without the owner onboard. I refuse delivery jobs with owners onboard
(I learned that the hard way).

I'm only talking about towing from commercial firms like TowboatUS and SeaTow. For everything else, yes the standard is for the skipper to be a named insured on the general boat policy of the owner. That would include any towing coverage by that policy which in my experience is not very good and requires paying up front and getting reimbursement later.

I've had very good experience with owner-aboard deliveries. Most of mine are instructional for both owners and additional crew. People ask me what time it is and I tell them how to build a watch. Just look at my posts on CF. *grin* We have a very clear and blunt discussion about who is in charge. That said, "why?" is always an acceptable question. Sometimes the answer comes immediately and sometimes it has to wait a bit.

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I find it strange that a delivery captain would need to provide "tow boat insurance".
Because of my location in Asia That concept is pretty foreign to me.

This may be unique to the US where Federal law prohibits the government (e.g. USCG) from competing with commercial entities (TowboatUS).

As to why, there are several reasons at least for me. In the first place sometimes owners lie about their boat. Sure, we go over the boat (and I have walked away) but you can't find everything. Ever had a drive leg seize up? I really hate sail drives. In addition a lot of boats are being moved as part of a sale and may have been sitting for quite a while. All kinds of things can go wrong from debris in fuel tanks to failed seals.

I moved a boat from Bradenton FL to Charleston SC that blew backstay adjuster seals in the middle of the night rounding Ft Jefferson. Hydraulic fluid turned the cockpit and aft deck into a skating rink and we might have lost the rig if not for the running backstays. In that case we motored into Stock Island, rigged an expedient, and sailed to Fort Lauderdale for repairs (better prices, better transportation than the Keys).
I have sailed into the dock a number of times with failed engines (usually fuel related). I've also been towed. Many thanks to the TowboatUS tower out of Lynnhaven Roads who went to West Marine and picked up two cases of fuel filters and dropped them at the boat just North of Thimble Shoals Channel; he trusted me to get him a check when I got home (maybe it was the fresh chocolate chip cookies we had waiting for him). Then the tower who shadowed us when the whole electrical system failed (in the dark, no nav lights) and called the drawbridges for us until we got to the dock.

Could we have managed without a tow service? I'd certainly like to think so. Given the availability and the relatively low price of the service (about three times the cost of a private owner's policy) and considering the increased speed and safety of availing oneself of it I'm happy to pay for it. And yes, it is something I market. I also share the availability with other skippers because many don't realize that personal policies don't cover paid skippers unless the owner is aboard.

[Pelagic]

Thanks Auspicious, that all makes sense understanding the density of boating in the US and the coverage and services these companies provide.

Especially if You are providing a mostly coastal service of delivering sold boats to their.new owners.

If I may ask.....what is your annual Premium and is there a Deductible?

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Thanks Auspicious, that all makes sense understanding the density of boating in the US and the coverage and services these companies provide.

Especially if You are providing a mostly coastal service of delivering sold boats to their.new owners.

If I may ask.....what is your annual Premium and is there a Deductible?

More than coastal for me, but in the US it is worth having. See



https://www.boatus.com/products-and-...es/boat-towing

https://www.seatow.com/


My premium from last June was $272US for a year. Here in the land of lawsuits an uncovered tow can easily run to thousands of dollars.



There is no deductible. You call, they show up. At some point a form is handed over and you sign it. "Special services" (like the fuel filters) are up to the local tower.


Another story. Surprise! I was moving a boat with the owner who was a repeat customer. We both got a little comfortable with the relationship and I didn't double check fuel. He said he'd just filled it up and I accepted it. *sigh* "Just" turned out to be a couple of months ago and he'd used the boat a lot. We were not going far, from Washington DC down the Potomac, up the Chesapeake Bay to Annapolis. Maybe 2-1/2 days straight through, which was one of the reasons my customer/friend had me aboard. It saved him taking a week off to hop along and he had built in help moving his car. In four or five kts of breeze we were motoring until the fuel ran out. So we rolled out the main for the first time on the trip and it jammed about halfway out. Goodie. Rolled out the jib and trimmed as well as I could. Called TowboatUS and dispatch transferred me to the local tower. It wasn't an emergency. We were safe and making slow progress in the right direction. He was backed up with a number of calls. I told him a tow wasn't necessary, just fuel and if possible a bosun's chair. He said he'd fit us in. The good news (for a change) was the wind was on the nose so we started short tacking to flip the load back and forth on the main furler. Within an hour (maybe twenty tacks) the fold that had jammed the main furler popped free and boat speed picked up from about 1-1/2 kts to nearly 4. Another hour later and the tow boat roared up. I filled him in. He dropped off two jugs of diesel, the bosun's chair, and a card and took off. No paperwork. Nothing. He was busy and heading up the South River to a sinking boat. We fueled, bled, and motor-sailed the rest of the way. Called in on arrival and arranged to return the jugs, chair, and do paperwork in the towers kitchen the next day. Of course we paid for the fuel.



TowboatUS and SeaTow, the two biggest towers in the US, also have apps for smartphones. When you use the app to call for help it grabs your location from GPS and all your preloaded membership information which then shows up on the computer screen at the dispatcher. This really speeds up response time. It works about 90% of the time. The dispatch center transfers you to the local tower. Some of the bigger ones have their own dispatch who may be the owner's wife in her kitchen. Seriously. You end up on the phone with the guy driving the towboat until s/he gets in radio range. It's all very efficient and reassuring.


On another trip (the one with the seized saildrive) the local tower was a peach. Another long story I'm afraid. We'd lost the port saildrive (a Lagoon 380) somewhere off the Carolinas. Half a day later when the main fell down (2:1 halyard chafed through - remember what I said about owners?) I called the Coast Guard and set a radio watch. We called in every four hours at change of watch. Sector North Carolina handed us off to Sector Hampton Roads. When we got to the mouth of the Chesapeake with one engine and small jib I just couldn't get in. Circles slowly drifting toward Bermuda. So we called TowboatUS and talked to the local guy. He was worried about the weather ("25 - 30 gusting to near 40, seas about 8 feet"). He said he was going to check and get back to me. He called Virginia pilots (the dispatch for commercial pilots who have a control tower at Cape Henry). The USCG has Virginia pilots in the comms loop so Virginia pilots told the tower "we have a guy out there we've been following, let me give him a call." Guess who? So the pilots call me, I tell them the same thing, they call the tower, tower calls me back. Bless him he did the best thing he could have done. He said it was too rough for safe operation so he had called the Coast Guard and released them. USCG can come help you if a commercial tower turns you down. Instead of one guy on a 24' boat I got five guys on a 40' cutter. Oh - it was February and about 20F outside. So under tow (my crew did GREAT but that is another story) we didn't have much to do so we started baking. Cookies, brownies, anything we could scrape up the ingredients for. Somewhere in there I called Cobb's Marine in Little Creek (my go-to for entering and leaving the Chesapeake - tell 'em I sent you) and told them I was coming. Cobb's made room for us in the lift well (wide for a cat and the cutter). The cutter nestled us up gentle as a kitten. In addition to the five guys on the cutter we had two more Coast Guardsmen who drove over from the Lynnhaven Roads station who brought extra fenders "in case" and the TowboatUS guy who was worried about us and three people from the marina. It's a good thing we made a lot of cookies and brownies.