Sudden Attraction to Hunters

[Tygger]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Sailorboy/Don - I just finished reading the entire thread. Very, very informative. Thanks for all the updates.

Like you, I was very wary of the Hunters after hanging around the various sailing forums for a while. But, also like you, I eventually realized that the bashing (Hunter or any other production boat) was seriously hysterical and increasingly silly. So I bought a used Hunter Legend 40 - and love it.

You have probably seen the "Production Boats and the Limits" thread I started over on SN that now has almost 1K posts and 120K+ views. It's more general than this thread in the sense that it covers all production boats: B/H/C/J/B, etc. - but, like this thread, it's a great resource for people looking to buy a boat.

As I've said there, the Hunter debate was over when S/V Sequitur (a Hunter 49) very comfortably endured an F10-11 in the Southern Ocean after rounding Cape Horn:



Sequitur

And then you have guys like Mark and others doing what many forumers say shouldn't be possible. So why this debate continues to rage is beyond me.

These modern production boats are built to handle typical "blue water" conditions. Period. No freakin' way would I ever buy an older "blue water boat" over a newer (even used) production boat...even for crossing oceans.

Hal Roth in his "Handing Storms at Sea" put these kinds of debates in perfect perspective for me. If you want to drag around your slow, stuffy, old bluewater boat your entire cruising life for that less than 1% of a storm that will make you feel like your boat choice was worth it...go for it. I'd rather enjoy the other 99% - AND - be okay in that same storm.

Now as for people being outraged that a Hunter can have problems after being grounded and pounding for an extended period on its side or on its keel - I just have to concluded that they don't really understand boats very well.

Anyway, great thread. Thanks dude.

If I were going to take a legend out into serious blue water, with even a 1% chance of a major storm, I would recognize what I was doing, and take some steps, such as upgrading the standing rigging and its associated hardware. I would have some kind of backup rudder on board (rudders can be replaced on those boats without hauling them out). I would recognize the boat's weaknesses, put in a staysail AND have a GaleSail ready for the furler. I would increase the size of the scuppers and beef up the companionway entrance. I'm glad this dude survived but there are things you can do to increase your odds.

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Name one single Oyster yacht that has sunk, other than the one that hit an iceberg off the Falkland islands 4 years ago, then remained afloat for two days awaiting the rescue vessel?

Didn't you just name one?

Boats sink. Is this a surprise to anyone?

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by Tygger

If I were going to take a legend out into serious blue water, with even a 1% chance of a major storm, I would recognize what I was doing, and take some steps, such as upgrading the standing rigging and its associated hardware. I would have some kind of backup rudder on board (rudders can be replaced on those boats without hauling them out). I would recognize the boat's weaknesses, put in a staysail AND have a GaleSail ready for the furler. I would increase the size of the scuppers and beef up the companionway entrance. I'm glad this dude survived but there are things you can do to increase your odds.

But that's just it. They didn't just "survive" - they were comfortable and nothing major broke. Nothing. Read their blog.

[robert sailor]

You are using examples from others to improve your position but the examples are no where near in reference to the boat you are comparing to. For example you talk of Hall Roth (very capable sailor in his day) and his reference to slow offshore boats and his desire to sail a modern boat offshore. The slow offshore boats he was referring to were the real heavy displacement double enders with small sail areas. The modern boats he was referring to are not today's modern boats built with glued in liners but stick built boats with glassed in bulkheads like the ones he was actually sailing. For example a Santa Cruz 50 and a Wauquiez 35 both wonderfully built boats that are simply much stronger in every way than any Hunter ever produced, just not in the same league so you shouldn't be using references like this to make your point.
Your Hunter is not in this level of quality, its a good all around production entry level boat and I'm sure you will enjoy it for many years but you are not rubbing shoulders with the likes of Santa Cruz and Wauquiez, nor are the current boats Hal Roths idea of modern boats.

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

You are using examples from others to improve your position...

When you say something like this, it's clear you're more interested in debate technique than the actual subject matter.

So, believe what you want. And debate all you want. I'm very comfortable with my position.

PS - Regarding Hal Roth my point was about the kinds of storms that people talk about in these debates in order to qualify a boat (serious storms...F10+). His point in "Handling Storms at Sea" is that these are exceedingly rare and avoidable...regardless of whether you're in a Hunter or Wauquiez.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

But that's just it. They didn't just "survive" - they were comfortable and nothing major broke. Nothing. Read their blog.

So smackdaddy,

Using your unsound logic, are you suggesting that you personally can feel confident sailing your 40ft Hunter down to the Falkland islands, hit an iceberg like the Oyster did and expect to stay afloat for two days while awaiting rescue?

Oysters sail up to the harsh environments of Greenland, Norway, Finland and down to Argentina all the time, are you suggesting Hunter sailboats are just as capable and that the owners of these boats have just simply wasted their money and over-prepared?

[S/V Illusion]

Sounds like the closest some people get to actual sailing is debating academic arguments on the subject. Even when faced with the reality of people sailing Hunters offshore safely, some still evoke their magic power of intuitive expertise denying the obvious. Adorable!

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

So smackdaddy,

Using your unsound logic, are you suggesting that you personally can feel confident sailing your 40ft Hunter down to the Falkland islands, hit an iceberg like the Oyster did and expect to stay afloat for two days while awaiting rescue?

Oysters sail up to the harsh environments of Greenland, Norway, Finland and down to Argentina all the time, are you suggesting Hunter sailboats are just as capable and that the owners of these boats have just simply wasted their money and over-prepared?

Dude - why would I want to hit an iceberg? That's silly.

I have no problem with people buying whatever they want. It's their money.

But yes, I'm absolutely suggesting that Cat A Hunters (and other rated production boas) are perfectly capable of bluewater sailing. A few have even done very well in the high latitudes as I've just shown you (though I think that's a different animal).

As a matter of fact, I've never heard of a Hunter hitting an iceberg and sinking. So maybe the Hunter's a better choice down there?

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

So smackdaddy,

Using your unsound logic, are you suggesting that you personally can feel confident sailing your 40ft Hunter down to the Falkland islands, hit an iceberg like the Oyster did and expect to stay afloat for two days while awaiting rescue?

Sound logic therefore must mean Oyster owners hit icebergs. Simple deductive logic therefore indicates Oyster owners are poor sailors who can't avoid icebergs.

Are we getting through yet?

[Kenomac]

Simple boredom today draws me into this ridiculous debate. Most boat owners understand the limitations of their vessels... some apparently can't, and never will.

Not all boats are created equal... 99% of sailors understand this.

[S/V Illusion]

Your world of self delusion must be a great place to live

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

Your world of self delusion must be a great place to live

Yours must be nice too. I'm glad to see we both can agree at the end of the debate.

Cheers.

[Tygger]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

But that's just it. They didn't just "survive" - they were comfortable and nothing major broke. Nothing. Read their blog.

I'm saying that if they did not upgrade the boat, they got lucky. I'm glad for them, but it's not what I would do. I hope it's not what anyone else here would do. As built, few people see Hunter Legends as bluewater worthy boats.

[Tygger]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

So smackdaddy,

Using your unsound logic, are you suggesting that you personally can feel confident sailing your 40ft Hunter down to the Falkland islands, hit an iceberg like the Oyster did and expect to stay afloat for two days while awaiting rescue?

Oysters sail up to the harsh environments of Greenland, Norway, Finland and down to Argentina all the time, are you suggesting Hunter sailboats are just as capable and that the owners of these boats have just simply wasted their money and over-prepared?

I owned a Hunter. I loved my Hunter. She was sprightly and a lot of fun to sail. She was fast and loved to heel. but she's not an Oyster. I wouldn't have sailed her across the Atlantic to the Azores without upgrading the rigging and the other things I named. I just got here. I don't know SmackDaddy. Maybe he's the Sailor of all Sailors, but I believe that although you get a lot for your money with a Hunter, you don't get an all weather/all conditions boat.

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by Tygger

I'm saying that if they did not upgrade the boat, they got lucky. I'm glad for them, but it's not what I would do. I hope it's not what anyone else here would do. As built, few people see Hunter Legends as bluewater worthy boats.

Their upgrading list was surprisingly minimal in terms of structural stuff. I remember they added an inner forestay and a couple of other things (I can't remember the whole list) - but it wasn't like they rebuilt the boat by any means. Most of the upgrades were just add-ons. I'm sure you can find the whole list in their book:

Welcome Aboard | SEQUITUR

As for your last sentence, I fully understand that this sentiment exists. It's just that it's wrong.