When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

[Group9]

Originally Posted by double u

"We need more people boating."

no way! too f...g many already!!!

A rising tide lifts all boats!

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Group9

A rising tide lifts all boats!

Based on the last 2 days of ICW travel between Vero Beach and New Smyrna FL, .................. NOT!

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Based on the last 2 days of ICW travel between Vero Beach and New Smyrna FL, .................. NOT!

Tide is somewhat minimal there. 2' maybe?

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Tide is somewhat minimal there. 2' maybe?

and it doesn't appear the tide as refloated any boats, so that saying is just wrong

BTW the tide is 2.5' and when I go aground tomorrow I'm counting on it to refloat me!!!!

[David Chin]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

Why do we feel we have to be encouraging people at all?

I don't know about you; but I have been sailing for over 30 years. It is a great out door sport and life style. When I am on to a good thing I like to share it. Sailing is much better than hitting a little white ball and keep on hitting it until you lost it in the water hazard. Yet lots of people try to promote that game!

[danielamartindm]

Originally Posted by cwyckham

We often have debates about whether we as a general group are too encouraging to newbies with a dream. Most should go and do it, but some should never go to sea.

Can we tell the difference on a forum?

What are our responsibilities as a community?

Here's a cautionary tale from someone who tried to dissuade a dock-mate. He went anyways and put himself and his crew at risk. And learned nothing.

We're all groping with achieving some balance between cautioning newbies to death, and encouraging them to learn and grow. Accepting some of the opinions here, you'd conclude that MANY of us have no business being on the water, given our lack of all the latest tech and a lifetime of experience; on the other end, obviously no newbie should be encouraged to head for blue water with no coastal experience and a vessel not up the task. I think the forum really does an excellent overall job in advising newbies the best way to proceed. Most would agree that there is such a thing as being overly cautious, but few would agree upon exactly where that point lies because we are, after all, talking about a dangerous activity; but looking back at my early days of sailing as a dumb kid full of bravado, I realize that had I been overly intimidated by my lack of experience, my reach would never have exceeded my grasp. I think this forum is a HUGE and responsible resource for sailors of all levels.

[Group9]

The X factor, that we never know, is the person. Some people with a month's experience are in less danger when sailing off shore than others with thirty years experience. There is a big difference in 30 years of experience and one year of experience 30 times.

And, some people just handle problems and adversity better than others.

[Stenn]

Originally Posted by Group9

The X factor, that we never know, is the person. Some people with a month's experience are in less danger when sailing off shore than others with thirty years experience. There is a big difference in 30 years of experience and one year of experience 30 times.

And, some people just handle problems and adversity better than others.

I agree on that human "X" factor ! Here on the Chesapeake a couple March's ago, a guy who fancied himself "experienced" decided he could teach a couple total newbies how to sail while the water was still in the 50's. Somehow the newbies made it to shore and survived, the "experienced" sailor is no longer with us. [emoji32]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

There was a thread a while back, wherein deck officer, a CMA graduate, offered up a lot of well thought out advice to the OP, who basically went out and did precisely what they wanted, seeming not to heed what was really well founded counsel.

I've been flamed for offering an unwanted point of view to an OP. I did not like it. Fear of being flamed is a strong deterrent for me. But, sometimes, "help" is tough love, not just, "oh, how wonderful!"

Still, there are people whose expectations are not going to be met. Some seem incapable of learning, even from their own mistakes. Some do not respect the fact that they're going into a potentially hostile environment, do not anticipate that things will need repairing, which takes time as well as money. [I think of the new catamaran for sale in Panama, because the owners couldn't cope emotionally with it requiring fixing as often as it did.] At least on this forum, it seems that the ones with experience counsel "ease your way into it" and the less actual experience some have the more they take the "follow your dream" stance. Cruising really isn't for everyone, and it's not all mai tais in the sunset; some of it is fixing your boat in exotic locations, with makeshift means.

Speaking only for myself on this, I am trying to offer suggestions, or ideas, to people, who then have the responsibility to make their own decisions. I want my "help" to not lead folks into danger, but I think driving on the freeway's more dangerous than cruising, too...

Ann

Originally Posted by mrohr

Hi all, I'm new here,but I know many have adventure experience, so your advice will be appreciated.
My life is very dull and I hate my nowhere job so I just need some adventure and cannot afford a boat but will settle for another dream off climbing Mount Everest.
I am reading all I can about this type of thing and my wife is totally "on board " as long as she can get some shopping in while I go to the top alone. Yea , I know some people take along some of those sherpa guys, but I want to experience this on my own….couldn't afford one anyhow and I have always been able to figure which way is up (to top) and which way is down ( to the bottom).
i can borrow a gps so I don't get lost and come down on the China side, but come to think of it maybe if I do, i could trade with the natives there some clothes or something in my back pack to bring back to trade ,i know I have to pay for this dream somehow!
I also know that it is cold there so I'll bring my warmest scarf and safari hat.
Some naysayers have said that this dream is unbelievable but I plan to build a snowman at the top and take a selfie with him to prove what can be done if you set your mind to it.
People don't know there is no air there nothing!!! you can't breathe or you will get a terrible headache so I'm practicing holding my breath as I go in and out of my trailer to strengthen my legs and lungs.
I got some water-skis at a yard sale but does anyone here know if they can be used on snow ??? I may need to get down in a hurry if my wife is ever approved for another credit card.

[Shark_Bait]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Imho:

There are two things about "attitude". One is if you do not like my attitude, simply click the disregard button (mentally or literally). Another thing is report my post to the admin.

It is too bad when all one brings is the attitude, but a social forum without attitudes would be a very boring place. Attitudes add flavour to otherwise plain and boring plates like "should I stay or should I go" and "how much does cruising life cost", etc.

A social media forum like CF is an 'agora' - kind of a Hyde Park where anyone can talk. And no one should be ever calmed down on such a forum on the basis of being: a green horn (a rookie), all hands-on (as opposed to all-Bowditch) or an 'armchair' (as opposed to balls all grown up with sargasso and barnacles). For a worthy piece of information and good advice can come from any source. Being an old salt makes one complacent, not wise. Being a rookie makes one sharp, not stupid.

So. I like attitudes. When there is too much attitude I ask the admins to step in and re-read the offending (in my eyes) post with their own and very native eyes. Who knows, maybe what is attitude to me, is wit and shrewd sense of humour to someone else.

Take care, girls. Sail more, post more, judge less.

Love,
b.

What do you mean being all "hands-on" vs "all-bowditch"?

[exMaggieDrum]

Originally Posted by Group9

The X factor, that we never know, is the person. Some people with a month's experience are in less danger when sailing off shore than others with thirty years experience. There is a big difference in 30 years of experience and one year of experience 30 times.

And, some people just handle problems and adversity better than others.

Well said, and so true.

[exMaggieDrum]

Originally Posted by danielamartindm

We're all groping with achieving some balance between cautioning newbies to death, and encouraging them to learn and grow. Accepting some of the opinions here, you'd conclude that MANY of us have no business being on the water, given our lack of all the latest tech and a lifetime of experience; on the other end, obviously no newbie should be encouraged to head for blue water with no coastal experience and a vessel not up the task. I think the forum really does an excellent overall job in advising newbies the best way to proceed. Most would agree that there is such a thing as being overly cautious, but few would agree upon exactly where that point lies because we are, after all, talking about a dangerous activity; but looking back at my early days of sailing as a dumb kid full of bravado, I realize that had I been overly intimidated by my lack of experience, my reach would never have exceeded my grasp. I think this forum is a HUGE and responsible resource for sailors of all levels.

My first boat in 1999 was a 1978 42' Whitby that I had no idea how to handle, maintain, or sail. I did not truly understand the cost of upgrades or repairs, some of it absolutely necessary for the safe use of the boat. It was basically sound but it might not have been and I wouldn't have known the difference. But, I/we did not Just Go.

We took our time learning the things we did not know or understand. We made mistakes, and, it cost a lot more than we could have predicted beforehand. Fortunately, we had the resources at the time, and I took a job at a boatyard to learn more about how to fix/upgrade things that were beyond worn out. We would have been manifestly unready to Just Go at the time. The boat was better prepared than we were as it had spent 15 years on the high seas just before we got her (with all the wear and tear that entails).

The issue I have with the Just Go advice is that some people might be ready for that, and the boat they get might be ready for that, but some should NOT Just Go. I don't know how to predict that. I have seen direct evidence that it works some times and not others. Unfortunately some of that evidence was loss of life, damage to other boats, hazards to whomever had to go rescue those Just Goer's.

IMHO, newbies should be cautioned to learn what they don't even know they should learn before. They can make the decision after that whether they believe they can do it, or not. Some will choose to Just Go and regret it, or cause others to regret that they had to be involved with them, but then, some 30 year "experienced" old salts also need to be rescued. Every year there are examples of both in this forum and other "news" sources.

We made it and didn't have any regrets, except that we sold the boat later after 15,000nm under the keel. The boat is continuing around the world with new owners. But we went prepared and much more knowledgeable than when I had to back the boat out of the PO's slip and take it 50nm to its new home. I was petrified but made it, other than playing bumper boat with the boat in the next slip going out. The owner of that boat regretted that I Just Went for sure.

Go, but Go with at least some minimal experience and understanding. The marinas and dry storage in Mexico are full of boats that Just Went and the owners got scared and quit. The only boat that I personally knew where they just bought the boat with a one day inspection and went lost their engine approaching Puerto Vallarta and literally freaked out. One of the "sailors" mothers found out and no one knew where they were so Mom called the Australian Coast Guard (or whatever it is called) and they called the Mexican Navy so the Navy started a search and towed them in (although another cruiser went out to find and get them without good coordinates). I was running the morning net when their Mayday came in. The Navy was monitoring the net and they went out to get them. They were not happy from listening to the net we shut down after the Mayday. They should have not Gone IMHO. They planned on sailing to Australia after a short time in Mexico. It could have been much worse.

[Stenn]

Back to the question, should we say anything...in other words, am I "my brother's keeper,"....and SharkBait's "sail more, post more, judge less..." and that pertinent "X" factor....what's really missing more is the personal face-to-face....all this posting, though greatly beneficial to a point, has no hope of assessing that "X" factor we might be in a mich better position to discern face-to-face. My most memorable lessons were from the guy 5 boats fown in the marina, who saw me working on my boat and just came down and struck up a coversation about liking mine's design....he taught me a lot, very respectfully. We've probably all noticed how this electronic medium changes how we communicate with each other, either on this forum, or especially at work, and it's often worse, more accidentally damaging then the same communication face-to-face.

So Yes, keep up the posts, but do make an effort to go talk to people personally, connect (believe me, they'll appreciate it!), so when it comes time to watch someone you know in the marina about to shove off, you don't just shrug your shoulders and say "not my job" when you're pretty sure they're endangering themselves. If you're not going to, then you can't wring your hands later....might as well blow everybody off and be an island....but when you do, don't expect people to help you when you regard them that way.

[exMaggieDrum]

Originally Posted by Stenn

Back to the question, should we say anything...in other words, am I "my brother's keeper,"....and SharkBait's "sail more, post more, judge less..." and that pertinent "X" factor....what's really missing more is the personal face-to-face....all this posting, though greatly beneficial to a point, has no hope of assessing that "X" factor we might be in a mich better position to discern face-to-face. My most memorable lessons were from the guy 5 boats fown in the marina, who saw me working on my boat and just came down and struck up a coversation about liking mine's design....he taught me a lot, very respectfully. We've probably all noticed how this electronic medium changes how we communicate with each other, either on this forum, or especially at work, and it's often worse, more accidentally damaging then the same communication face-to-face.

So Yes, keep up the posts, but do make an effort to go talk to people personally, connect (believe me, they'll appreciate it!), so when it comes time to watch someone you know in the marina about to shove off, you don't just shrug your shoulders and say "not my job" when you're pretty sure they're endangering themselves. If you're not going to, then you can't wring your hands later....might as well blow everybody off and be an island....but when you do, don't expect people to help you when you regard them that way.

I agree with your advice here. It has its limits though depending on whether the wannabe will actually heed any "good" advice. I saw a boat setup for going offshore getting ready in a flurry at my dock this week. I stopped by to chat for just a bit since they were obviously in a rush. One local tech was reinstalling an autopilot linear drive in the aft under the deck. The mount that was previously custom built had flexed when seatrialed earlier in the week so the tech was going to weld some more bracing on the aluminum mount.

The most important thing I shared with them was to not go anywhere on a schedule. They whole-heartedly agreed with me. The skipper had never been offshore and neither had one other crew. One "experienced" crew as going as well. They were going to meet up with a group rally going south and they were to group up at the last inshore port before going out, actually a pretty rugged 12 hour sail in itself.

They were leaving at 5:00 coming hell or high water, with a unproven new autopilot install - not even a seatrial of a critical part of the autopilot that had proven to be a problem just before. I hope they have fair winds and a working autopilot just to get to the rally meet up. Funny how they agreed with no schedules yet taking off on the very first one.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. There must be a salty way of saying that but it doesn't come to mind at the moment.

[sailorboy1]

I say we in general should stop protecting idiots, it leads to more idiots.

I know I know, not allowed to say such a non-pc thing anymore.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I say we in general should stop protecting idiots, it leads to more idiots.

I know I know, not allowed to say such a non-pc thing anymore.

You can generally tell when a poster has it together, all their sh!t in one sock. Giving advise is great on specifics not blanket go for it. You can also pick out the dreamers with ill conceived ideas. I guess recommendation aren't bad but apparently saying it is dumb is a taboo. Saying go for it seems like a crime.