Bluewater boats?

[sv Stella Maris]

Originally Posted by Marc1

I used to consider sail boats as the ultimate freedom machine. After all wind is free right?
It is not after i found out the cost of sails ropes harness and the rest of the stuff, that I came to realise that motoring is most likely as cheap if not cheaper than sailing, the boats are way more comfortable and I decide when to go and how fast.

And then sailboats have motors and as opposed to real sailboats of old, they "cheat". Even racing boats have monster diesel engines pushing hydraulics to shift stuff around and maximising the power of the wind and pretend to be real sailing boats.

But I am no purist and don't really care. I love motoring boats, the bigger the better and my limit is only my hip pocket. Diesel duck is great ... a trimaran powered by two MAN engines even better.

I would however love to hear from the sailboat owners the real cost of sailing+motoring in order to compare to similar size motoring boat. Just for fun, no contest really, just curious.

Hi Marc1: I’m pretty astonished the haters ain’t hating too much here. My family is new to living aboard our 45’ Sailing Cat in SW Puerto Rico currently, but not new to sailing.

Here are some costs from just last month for you:

Diesel: US$403 for transport from St. Martin to Aruba (for hurricane storage) then up here to Puerto Rico (motoring about 40 hours total for both). 120 gallons

New Mainsail/battons/reef blocks: US$9,750. (I’ll allegedly get 7-10 years from this cross stitched full Dacron sail with a good sail bag)

(2) Harken blocks: $US400 to maintain equipment

(1) Spinlock clutch: US$100

Lots more but they’d be a wash for power boats.

I need new lines also...maybe a few thousand.

Oh, and my (3) year old US$8,000 Harken Electric winch is t working right (factory installed). How the heck can a stinking electric motor and gear box cost that much?!? I happily use my $300 angle drill for all my others and am considering throwing the Harken in the drink just to spite it. Seriously $8k; WTF?!

No joke, I look up at the mast sometimes and consider life with it chopped off and done with.

I’ve got (2) Diesel engines anyway and they run about 30% of the time and wouldn’t mind running the whole time.

Cost is a wash, but I like the quiet at times too.

Then again, I just met a couple who’s wife’s 2 fingers were ripped off her hand in a squall from a line jammed at a winch...never saw that on a power boat...whistling...

[Marc1]

A dealer once told me that if I needed to know the cost of the fuel I couldn't afford the boat.

So if a powerboat owner talks about fuel cost he shouldn't have a boat yet if a sailboat owner discusses fuel economy it is all to save the planet. ...

Hi Marc1: I’m pretty astonished the haters ain’t hating too much here.

May be haters is too strong of a word. Your figures confirm what i was told a while ago. Sail cost the same or more than power. A cat is certainly a comfortable boat to live in. A monohull on the other side, can be a challenge for your skull integrity.

However there is more to the equation of power vs sail. What size sailboat can you handle on your own compared to a diesel boat?
I like the troller yacht concept, sails to help the engines along or for emergency and no need for fancy maneuvers.

Each to his own. i surely admire sailors who venture thousands of miles on puny little sailboat.

[Macblaze]

Originally Posted by Marc1

So if a powerboat owner talks about fuel cost he shouldn't have a boat yet if a sailboat owner discusses fuel economy it is all to save the planet. ...



May be haters is too strong of a word. Your figures confirm what i was told a while ago. Sail cost the same or more than power. A cat is certainly a comfortable boat to live in. A monohull on the other side, can be a challenge for your skull integrity.

However there is more to the equation of power vs sail. What size sailboat can you handle on your own compared to a diesel boat?
I like the troller yacht concept, sails to help the engines along or for emergency and no need for fancy maneuvers.

Each to his own. i surely admire sailors who venture thousands of miles on puny little sailboat.

I think initial investment costs account a large part of the difference. I would love an ocean going powerboat but I am not going to get into one for much less than a cool million. I could cross an ocean comfortably in a $200,000 sailboat.

Even just coastal cruising. $100,000 buys a pretty comfortable new-ish sailboat. That same money gets me 10-15 more years and a lot more hours on the engine on the powerboat side. I don't think one can really make a case for powerboating as "costing the same or less."

Having said that, this weekend I am following the track of a friend who went from sail to power and am pretty envious of the miles he's putting on now. Being able to get going definitely has some value in it. Warm and cozy too.

[Marc1]

Gaudeamus igitur ... not many know that one this days.

What about sailing solo compared to motoring solo?

[Zzmeyer]

The Beneteau Swift Trawler 35 footer base price is $417,000. The Beneteau Oceanis 35 footer base price is $145,000. To spend $417,000 base price you would be getting the Beneteau Oceanis 55 footer.

[Macblaze]

Originally Posted by Marc1

Gaudeamus igitur ... not many know that one this days.

What about sailing solo compared to motoring solo?

What about it? I've never solo'd on a motor boat but I imagine it must be pretty easy. Docking might be a thing...twin screws would be ok but how the hell do you get from the wheel to the dock on a windy day with a single engine? It would be a nightmare...

[s/v Jedi]

Powerboat? Only one way:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBhG30iBRbE

[Marc1]

... how the hell do you get from the wheel to the dock on a windy day with a single engine? It would be a nightmare...

Yes, not easy but doable. I regularly dock to my pontoon on my own. Even when it is on a river, wind and current are an issue. We have current that runs at one knot most of the time and wind can be a nuisance too.
i get away with docking with the current with a burst of reverse that leaves the boat slightly reversing, run to the stern and throw a stern line over the cleath. It fails sometimes and then it is go forward, turn around and try again. A bigger boat would be more forgiving due to inertia that gives you a bit more time.

[NYSail]

Originally Posted by sv Stella Maris

Hi Marc1: I’m pretty astonished the haters ain’t hating too much here. My family is new to living aboard our 45’ Sailing Cat in SW Puerto Rico currently, but not new to sailing.

Here are some costs from just last month for you:

Diesel: US$403 for transport from St. Martin to Aruba (for hurricane storage) then up here to Puerto Rico (motoring about 40 hours total for both). 120 gallons

New Mainsail/battons/reef blocks: US$9,750. (I’ll allegedly get 7-10 years from this cross stitched full Dacron sail with a good sail bag)

(2) Harken blocks: $US400 to maintain equipment

(1) Spinlock clutch: US$100

Lots more but they’d be a wash for power boats.

I need new lines also...maybe a few thousand.

Oh, and my (3) year old US$8,000 Harken Electric winch is t working right (factory installed). How the heck can a stinking electric motor and gear box cost that much?!? I happily use my $300 angle drill for all my others and am considering throwing the Harken in the drink just to spite it. Seriously $8k; WTF?!

No joke, I look up at the mast sometimes and consider life with it chopped off and done with.

I’ve got (2) Diesel engines anyway and they run about 30% of the time and wouldn’t mind running the whole time.

Cost is a wash, but I like the quiet at times too.

Then again, I just met a couple who’s wife’s 2 fingers were ripped off her hand in a squall from a line jammed at a winch...never saw that on a power boat...whistling...

$9,750 for new main sail...... wow. I have a 43 foot sailboat. In mast furling. Quote for brand new main, modern cut, not cheap line from Neil pryde is $3,500 and I get a bag with that too.... also my lewmar 40 power winch was about $1,900 verses your $8,000. Not to be an ahole but eheee are you shopping or is your boat much larger than mine??



Greg

[Macblaze]

Originally Posted by Marc1

Yes, not easy but doable. I regularly dock to my pontoon on my own. Even when it is on a river, wind and current are an issue. We have current that runs at one knot most of the time and wind can be a nuisance too.
i get away with docking with the current with a burst of reverse that leaves the boat slightly reversing, run to the stern and throw a stern line over the cleath. It fails sometimes and then it is go forward, turn around and try again. A bigger boat would be more forgiving due to inertia that gives you a bit more time.

I live in the land of bullrails. You'll find some pretty heated arguments for and against and usually I come down pro bullrail and anti cleat. But there is no way I could do that with a bullrail, so I guess cleats come out on top for single handing powerboats.

I spent yesterday looking at the Dashew site. I just found out one of my first purchases when I suddenly come into millions (lots of millions.) Nothing like a well thought-out boat!

[Rule303]

My 54' cruising power cat drinks around one litre per km, or about 2.6nm per Gallon at ~9.2kt. That's with both motors running. They are commercial Perkins, and I have found them far more rock solid than my old Volvos on my previous wind powered cat.

So with 3200l of bunkerage, that gives me 1800nm, and I have another 2000l of deck bladders.

So with a little planning, you just fill up from fuel barges or marinas.

This one hasn't really done any trans oceanic, but has run from the bottom of Tasmania up to Thailand, and seen maybe 55kt and 6m seas.

That is pretty much the worst I saw crossing the Atlantic in my Lagoon, and I have no doubt the power cat is far more comfortable, and more capable.

[houseofcharm]

If you have a bilge full o' cash, try this one on for size: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=oBhG30iBRbE


I saw one for 1.5M in bristol shape.

[Kit_L]

It is not after i found out the cost of sails ropes harness and the rest of the stuff, that I came to realise that motoring is most likely as cheap if not cheaper than sailing, the boats are way more comfortable and I decide when to go and how fast.

Money is only one way to figure the question, as we all know. My deepwater sailing buddies just love everything that entails, and pay the relevant prices. They often motor, so that means that those systems need to be in top shape too, as well as all the sailing systems.

how the hell do you get from the wheel to the dock on a windy day with a single engine? It would be a nightmare...

My current boat, Sea Biscuit, is a single screw (Perkins 6.3544, 28" prop.), and yes, practise is needed. Yesterday, in a current (3Kn) and a wind (NE, 10–15Kn, I turned the boat in its own length 180° to leave the dock. This just needs practise. Sometimes I pivot off a bow or stern line. And there are days I do not go out, because I know how rough it will be outside.

Here are the stats for the offshore delivery trip home I did with one co-pilot:

550 NM

62 hours

650 litres fuel (so, 1.1 NM/litre).

8.9 kn average speed; this included 40NM inland waters, and 510NM 35–45 NM offshore, steaming 24/7 on two hour watches. That was an intense trip; otherwise we 'harbour hop' locally.

We rode the East Australia Current South on that trip; Sea Biscuit does 7kn on flat water at the this speed/length ratio (about 1/1). It leaves no wake at this speed. The current was running S at 3 kn at that time.

I will be taking her to Tasmania later in the year (that's the plan, anyhow).

I like learning and maintaining all the systems that one relies on at sea. Although designated a "trawler sedan", Sea Biscuit is a crayfishing trawler design, with a relatively shallow draft (4') but a trawler that is lacking the fish well these boats usually have and it has an extended wheel house instead. The generator (which I don't use) is located there, in a watertight compartment; and the engine and batteries aft of this.

As for reliability with a single engine, I do understand the attraction of twins. And the rescue vessel I helm for Marine Rescue has twin engines, but it has a planing hull to be able to get to a rescue quickly if needed. But these older Perkins are extremely reliable, and economical, too.

I love the action of a yacht under sail, and my boat is less comfortable than a yacht in choppy seas (snappy, due to its flat buttock lines aft). But she is very stable initially, and that makes being at anchor, or at a mooring/dock comfortable, and although I like to go places in her, I spend way more time stopped than underway.

Not making any great point here other than time spent on the water is excellent, and I like yachts and power boats (but only the trawler type for myself). They are slow (but on average faster than most yachts over time), they are economical to run when costed totally, and are very comfortable most of the time.

[jgrandon]

Good question!
What is out there about electric drive solar power boats?
I saw some videos from Solarwave that looked intriguing, but expensive.

[Kit_L]

There is a demonstration cat getting some attention (French, from memory), and I will search for that, but in the meantime, one closer to home for you folk:

https://www.passagemaker.com/destina...oat-great-loop