Ferry And Powerboat Collide

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Someone earlier wondered whether it takes longer in a ferry to activate reverse? Maybe captain was working on this causing delay? I think ferries like this have 2 engines and props, right? Maybe it takes some time to start the other engine and slow ferry down? Or do they keep both engines on at all times when running- the "reverse" one at idle?


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

Many of the RoRo type have a helm/control station at each end.. and the skipper has to move from one to the other to operate the ferry after each run.

[rolandcavanagh]

Now I'm wondering how long it takes to fire up the engine that was throwing the propwash visible in the video. I did a little research, this ferry, the M/V Chetzemoka, has a classic propulsion system - one engine powering each end.

WSDOT - Ferries - M/V Chetzemoka

According to another article she was built without feathering props.

I'm guessing that the procedure would be to drop the "rear" propulsion system into reverse, and then fire up the "front" one and throttle it up.

There is a possibility that the "front" engine is kept running for the short trip, or to keep the front prop rotating to match travel velocity (a fuel conservation technique, according to a design site).

Is there someone out there that has operated one of this class ferry and can tell us what the procedure and timing is?

[edited to remove the pdf of the design drawings, it only displayed the first page, not the page of interest - link is here: http://web.archive.org/web/201110141...FerryPlans.pdf ]

[TacomaSailor]

How does the 500 yard exclusion zone work in real life? Take a look at the Pt Defiance chart (18453-1) and then look at the Pt Defiance ferry schedule.

I think many of the commenters here do not have a real understanding of life on the water in Puget Sound south of Seattle.

I have been a passenger on the Pt Defiance ferry hundreds of times and have operated a boat near the ferry many hundreds of times, fishing, skiing, sailing, working with the USCG Auxiliary, sailboarding. Here are some details that might make it easier to understand what life is like in Dalco Passage.

Dalco Passage is only 1.5 NM wide so the 500-yard ferry exclusion zone blocks 1/3 of the entire passage. The Chetzemoka cruises at 16-knots so that exclusion zone can move very rapidly. The boat seldom takes a direct path from one side to the other so it is impossible to judge where she will be in five minutes.

Here are all the commercial and state boating activities near the ferry landing and their distance from the landing:

- Four ramp State of Washington boat launch 30-yards east
- Pt Defiance marina 40-yards east
- Pt Defiance Boathouse 200 yards to the west (they rent hundreds of 14' fishing boats a day during salmon season)n
- Pt Defiance Fuel Dock 200 yards west

The Pt Defiance ferry is on a 50 or 55 minute round trip schedule and needs 10-minutes to cross Dalco Passage. That means it sits at the Pt Defiance ferry landing for 20-minutes out of each hour and is within 500-yards of the marina entrance for 30-minutes each hour.

As the ferry leaves Pt Defiance it crosses the most active fishing ground in Puget Sound. On weekends there are literally hundreds of small boats drifting back and forth and none of them pay any attention to the Ferry.

Does the USCG and WSF system really expect pleasure boats to stay 500-yards clear in Dalco Passage? My experience is NO because it is physically impossible!

They do expect small boat operators to show some common sense and allow the ferry room to operate. They expect us to slow down and let the ferry pass ahead. They expect us to stay out of the way as the ferry approaches it's Pt Defiance or Tahlequah landings.

All this other talk about exclusion zones, VTS, TSS, right of way...etc is irrelevant because Dalco is a crowded busy passage where everyone needs to cooperate, use common sense, and allow the big boats the room to roam.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by tuffr2

I need to rethink how well Bayliner boats are built. The Ferry should have changed course.

Sure....You can win the battle but not the war. Tonnage always has right of way in restricted waters.

[Bill Seal]

If the only person on the pleasure boat is below taking a poop, would the vessel technically be a "vessel not under command" and be therefore required to display the proper signals?
BTW, what is the proper COLREGS day signal for "taking a poop" ?

[TacomaSailor]

WSF Ferry Chetezmoka is based on the Island Home class of ferry used in the Northeast US.

The propulsion system consists of two main engines, each driving a fixed-pitch propeller at either end. The steering system features a high-lift rudder for added maneuverability. The new vessel is 274 feet long with a 65-foot beam, and has a service speed of about 14 knots.

My experience as a passenger on the boat is that it can operate each engine and prop independently and simultaneously. As it comes into the dock the aft drive engine goes to idle and the forward engine can immediately provide reverse thrust.

The controls are all electronic. There were initial operating problems (2011 - 2012 on the Townsend-Keystone run which is the most difficult run in the system) with the software allowing the engines to apply too much power to the prop too quickly which caused excess vibration. Those problems were resolved with software to ramp in the power application and some judicious reinforcement and welding to underbody structures damaged by the vibration.

Fun Fact - Chetzemoka burns 45 gallons an hour of diesel fuel at cruise speed of about 13 knots.

[SV DestinyAscen]

Originally Posted by Bill Seal

If the only person on the pleasure boat is below taking a poop, would the vessel technically be a "vessel not under command" and be therefore required to display the proper signals?
BTW, what is the proper COLREGS day signal for "taking a poop" ?

Not under command refers to the boat being uncontrollable by the people in the boat - not uncontrolled by the people in the boat.

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by StuM

But you can't forget about the exclusion zone. That is the crux of the matter.

[quoted regulations]


That seems fairly definitive to me. The ferry master can direct any small pleasurecraft within 500 yards to turn away or do anything else he considers necessary for the safety and security of his vessel and the pleasure craft must "keep clear" of the smaller 100 yard zone unless the ferry master specifically authorises him to do otherwise.

This is exactly where the ferries get their "special rights"!

So by this measure the ferries are effectively not bound by the COLREGS crossing rules. A ferry is always the stand-on vessel, regardless of port/starboard/overtaking/sail. Those COLREGS rules only apply after another boat penetrates the exclusion zone, but by that time it may be too late for the ferry to take evasive give-way action (as was apparently the case in the collision that started this thread).

If so, I can live with this, but this interpretation should be published in the Rules for all to see and understand. It's certainly not obvious to many of us.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

So by this measure the ferries are effectively not bound by the COLREGS crossing rules. A ferry is always the stand-on vessel, regardless of port/starboard/overtaking/sail. Those COLREGS rules only apply after another boat penetrates the exclusion zone, but by that time it may be too late for the ferry to take evasive give-way action (as was apparently the case in the collision that started this thread).



If so, I can live with this, but this interpretation should be published in the Rules for all to see and understand. It's certainly not obvious to many of us.

Ahhh, but thse rules are not in the COLREGS because they are US law not international. In addition to various items like that in the US CFRs (Codes of Federal Regulations) you need to know which vessels have been give special status which may only be published by the local USCG district.

This is almost as much fun as Florida anchoring regulations.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Bill Seal

If the only person on the pleasure boat is below taking a poop, would the vessel technically be a "vessel not under command" and be therefore required to display the proper signals?
BTW, what is the proper COLREGS day signal for "taking a poop" ?

No, the vessel would technically be in violation of Rule5 requiring a lookout to be maintained at all times.

Rule5 will be a key item the pleasure boater will get nailed for. The ferry skipper will also get nailed but probably not as bad.

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName...sContent#rule5

[admiralslater]

Originally Posted by krisb007

This thread is an interesting read.

So just out of curiosity, what would people say if that power boat had instead been a sailboat under sail? Then should the ferry alter course in that case or should the sailboat change course to stay out of the exclusion zone?

that is very interesting goog point

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by krisb007

This thread is an interesting read.

So just out of curiosity, what would people say if that power boat had instead been a sailboat under sail? Then should the ferry alter course in that case or should the sailboat change course to stay out of the exclusion zone?

Pleasure boaters of all types are affected by the exclusion zone.

Regardless of boat type not maintaining a lookout is in violation of rule 5.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by TacomaSailor

How does the 500 yard exclusion zone work in real life? Take a look at the Pt Defiance chart (18453-1) and then look at the Pt Defiance ferry schedule.

Does the USCG and WSF system really expect pleasure boats to stay 500-yards clear in Dalco Passage? My experience is NO because it is physically impossible!

To answer your first question. It doesn't. There is no 500 yard "exclusion zone". It's a 100 yard "exclusion zone" within a "500 yard security and safety zone"

To answer your second question: No. Small craft are not expected (or required) to stay 500 yards clear, they are expected (and required) to stay 100 yards clear.

However, the ARE expected (and required) to follow any security or safety related directions from the ferry master when within the 500 yard zone.

[justwaiting]

Originally Posted by StuM

To answer your first question. It doesn't. There is no 500 yard "exclusion zone". It's a 100 yard "exclusion zone" within a "500 yard security and safety zone"

To answer your second question: No. Small craft are not expected (or required) to stay 500 yards clear, they are expected (and required) to stay 100 yards clear.

However, the ARE expected (and required) to follow any security or safety related directions from the ferry master when within the 500 yard zone.

YEP!

So does the 5 blasts constitute a direction from the ferry master?

[StuM]

Originally Posted by justwaiting

YEP!

So does the 5 blasts constitute a direction from the ferry master?

No. It's a "statement of concern", not a direction.

But it would be interesting to have a transcript of Channel 16 for the period.

"When vessels in sight of one another are approaching each other and from any cause either vessel fails to understand the intentions or actions of the other, or is in doubt whether sufficient action is being taken by the other to avoid collision, the vessel in doubt shall immediately indicate such doubt by giving at least five short and rapid blasts on the whistle."