Ferry And Powerboat Collide

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by StuM

Actually, the wording does make a difference. But regardless of which wording you choose, "conform as closely as possible to" is the critical wording. It does not say "conform to"

That is a classic example of "lawyer speak" which essentially makes that clause or sentence totally ineffective.

The CFR has been drawn up to cover a situation where large pleasure vessels have priority over small pleasure craft, so it is "as close as possible" to COLREGs while overriding certain rules.

If Regulations didn't override any rules, there wouldn't be any need for Rule 1(b) in COLREGs at all.

In addition to having a warped understanding of English, you have remarkably selective reading. You've once again omitted an important part of a regulation that unravels your discombobulated interpretation of it. What say you to para (e):

The Navigation Rules shall apply

at all times within a large passenger

vessel security and safety zone.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

In addition to having a warped understanding of English, you have remarkably selective reading. You've once again omitted an important part of a regulation that unravels your discombobulated interpretation of it. What say you to para (e):

The Navigation Rules shall apply

at all times within a large passenger

vessel security and safety zone.

On the contrary, I have a very good background in and understanding of both common English and legal interpretation. There is a vast difference between selective reading and omission of irrelevancies. I carefully considered para (e) before discarding it as irrelevant.

As for discombobulated, to quote the fictional Inigo Montoya:
"... I do not think it means what you think it means.”

I say: you are trying to construct an incorrect conclusion from a circular argument, since "The Navigation Rules" includes Rule 1 (b).

1. The CFR establishes special rules which give the ferry control of vessels in the water surrounding it.
2. The CFR also says that COLREGS applies.
3. COLREGS says that nothing in COLREGS shall interfere with the special rules. (ignoring the quibble about the undefinable "as closely as possible" )
This perforce includes Rule 8.

[Lodesman]

Do you really believe the manure you're shovelling? Because you're digging a pretty big hole for yourself in it?

Safety and Security zones didn't exist before 2002 and weren't actually in effect until 2004. They were put in place solely to provide protection against terrorist threats, not to change the way vessels would avoid collisions. You can likely see from the dates, that the regulations stem from the Coho bomb-smuggling incident ('99) and the USS Cole bombing ('00). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariti...ty_Act_of_2002

Do you not think the ferries followed Colregs before then?

So why don't we do a "what if" in Stu's make-believe, fantasy world where "conform as closely as possible" can mean "not conform at all" and having a 500-yard security zone means not having to give-way ever -

The Victoria Clipper, a 300-pax ferry operating in Puget Sound is crossing a traffic lane; to his starboard side, there is an 80,000 tonne breakbulk freighter, following the lane. Risk of collision exists. Who gives way? And why?
Show your work.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Do you really believe the manure you're shovelling? Because you're digging a pretty big hole for yourself in it?

Safety and Security zones didn't exist before 2002 and weren't actually in effect until 2004. They were put in place solely to provide protection against terrorist threats, not to change the way vessels would avoid collisions. You can likely see from the dates, that the regulations stem from the Coho bomb-smuggling incident ('99) and the USS Cole bombing ('00). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariti...ty_Act_of_2002

Do you not think the ferries followed Colregs before then?

So why don't we do a "what if" in Stu's make-believe, fantasy world where "conform as closely as possible" can mean "not conform at all" and having a 500-yard security zone means not having to give-way ever -

The Victoria Clipper, a 300-pax ferry operating in Puget Sound is crossing a traffic lane; to his starboard side, there is an 80,000 tonne breakbulk freighter, following the lane. Risk of collision exists. Who gives way? And why?
Show your work.

The ferry.. the 80,000tonner is likely 'Restricted in Movements'.. aka.. I cant F*$%ing Stop Quickly..

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by boatman61

The ferry.. the 80,000tonner is likely 'Restricted in Movements'.. aka.. I cant F*$%ing Stop Quickly..

You haven't shown your work. Where in the CFR does it exclude freighters? - it repeatedly states "all vessels" are subject to the conditions of the safety/security zone. Why would it be any different if it was a recreational boat instead of the freighter?
BTW, the freighter is not restricted in its ability to manoeuvre - it's not displaying signals and not being able to stop quickly is not included in the definition of RAM.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

You haven't shown your work. Where in the CFR does it exclude freighters? - it repeatedly states "all vessels" are subject to the conditions of the safety/security zone. Why would it be any different if it was a recreational boat instead of the freighter?
BTW, the freighter is not restricted in its ability to manoeuvre - it's not displaying signals and not being able to stop quickly is not included in the definition of RAM.

Boring w/end huh..?? here's another hair to split..
Check the rules for crossing shipping lanes for ALL shipping including other freighter's.. its like the rule I before E except after C..

[SV DestinyAscen]

Who uses a flowchart to go through the "work" of deciding what to do?

Just internalize standard predictable behavior then use common sense. Don't try to cross a vessel that can't maneuver like a jetski, don't be impatient, consider momentum. Not racing dinghys out there.


All this circular co reg debate ignores the basic point. Ferry operator expected smaller vessel to pay attention. Vessel operator was taking a dump in waters where it's unreasonable to autohelm without watch. Accident occurs and everyone is lucky no serious injuries or damage occurred.

Only insurance brokers and Admiralty investigators will go through this analysis. Invariably when some high profile celeb solosailor hits a container, it's always both parties are responsible because neither party did the right thing - avert collision.

In this instance the ferry may have VHFed before the five horn - we dont know, but I definitely know who the ******* was. And it wasn't the guy at the helm.

[Paul Elliott]

I ride the Anacortes / Friday Harbor WA State Ferry a lot, and on several recent occasions we've stopped and waited for a large tanker to cross. This was within the "Rosario Strait VTS Special Area" as shown on the chart and described here: https://www.uscg.mil/d13/psvts/docs/userman032503.pdf (see page 1-10). The larger ferries exceed 100 meters in length and so they are prohibited from operating within 2000 yards of a large ship. By the way, the tanker also has the security zone surrounding it.

Page 78 of this document mentions the vessel security zones, which apparently also include tankers and large passenger ships. This is just a summary document, but it does say the we should not approach within 100 yards of a "zoned" ship, and slow to minimum within 500 yards. This is not the complete text of the "zone" regulations that we've seen elsewhere, but it seems to say that COLREGS don't really apply as far as the little guys are concerned. We just have to keep away.

So my summary is this: The ferries are always the stand-on vessel. It's not just a good idea, it's the law!

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Boring w/end huh..?? here's another hair to split..
Check the rules for crossing shipping lanes for ALL shipping including other freighter's.. its like the rule I before E except after C..

What rules for crossing shipping lanes?

[TJ D]

Page 78 of this document mentions the vessel security zones, which apparently also include tankers and large passenger ships. This is just a summary document, but it does say the we should not approach within 100 yards of a "zoned" ship, and slow to minimum within 500 yards. This is not the complete text of the "zone" regulations that we've seen elsewhere, but it seems to say that COLREGS don't really apply as far as the little guys are concerned. We just have to keep away.

So my summary is this: The ferries are always the stand-on vessel. It's not just a good idea, it's the law![/QUOTE]


Hi Paul, this is what I was trying to say (quite poorly, I admit) all along. My call to VTS got exactly this answer, but their reasoning was not exactly in line with the regs. It confirmed my understanding of the situation well enough for me to not dig further.

But, this latest incident did cause some more research, and I learned some valuable stuff along the way, a good outcome.

To the earlier question about ferries and commercial (vts participant) traffic- the ferries generally follow standard steering rules.

If they're showing somebody in the lanes their red, they will maintain course/speed, and they also give way then the situation is reversed. I've never heard any talk of security zones between the professionals. There's really no need-these things are handled early between the vessels in question with the assistance of VTS.

I believe that tankers are considered RAM by the time they get to the San Juan ferry crossing, so the ferry will give way all the time if this is the case, of course.

Finally, if the Victoria clipper crossed a shipping lane/separation zone, and caused a collision with an 80,000 ton tanker following his lane, I can say with some confidence that the guy in his lane would come out pretty well.

Again, VTS is a big help with this, and we're all talking to each other.

By the way, if anybody missed it, VTS strongly encourages everybody to listen in while out in covered waters.

5A from the straits to Bush Point and all waters N of there.
14 S of Bush point
11 for Victoria traffic

It's a good resource when you're out there.

Good sailing, TJ

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

I ride the Anacortes / Friday Harbor WA State Ferry a lot, and on several recent occasions we've stopped and waited for a large tanker to cross. This was within the "Rosario Strait VTS Special Area" as shown on the chart and described here: https://www.uscg.mil/d13/psvts/docs/userman032503.pdf (see page 1-10). The larger ferries exceed 100 meters in length and so they are prohibited from operating within 2000 yards of a large ship. By the way, the tanker also has the security zone surrounding it.

Page 78 of this document mentions the vessel security zones, which apparently also include tankers and large passenger ships. This is just a summary document, but it does say the we should not approach within 100 yards of a "zoned" ship, and slow to minimum within 500 yards. This is not the complete text of the "zone" regulations that we've seen elsewhere, but it seems to say that COLREGS don't really apply as far as the little guys are concerned. We just have to keep away.

So my summary is this: The ferries are always the stand-on vessel. It's not just a good idea, it's the law!

I think several of you are jumping to conclusions that the exclusion zone interacts this way with the COLREGS steering & sailing rules.

I think it's a hard question without an obvious right answer, but I myself doubt that the exclusion zone invalidates Rule 8. Rather, my guess is that these are separate and independent obligations which do not affect each other.

Rule 8 deals with avoiding collisions.

The exclusion zone deals with preventing terrorism.

They are separate and different obligations, and the existence of the exclusion zone would not make the ferry the stand-on vessel.

The logical way for this to work is that if you violate the exclusion zone, you are liable for that. Without any regard as to the circumstances -- you were under sail, or even NUC or RAM. Because the obligation doesn't have anything to do with maneuvering or collision avoidance -- it just directs you to keep away to prevent a possible terrorist attack

If you do violate the exclusion zone, then you independently have the obligation to follow the Steering and Sailing Rules, including probably standing-on if that's what is required. Imagine the chaos which would result, if the whole METHOD of collision avoidance was overturned by a rule intended to stop terrorism. If the Steering and Sailing Rules don't apply inside an exclusion zone, then how do you know how to maneuver? How do you prevent a collision?

And there IS something specific about it in the regulations, cited by Lodesman above:

"(e) The Navigation Rules shall apply at all times

within a large passenger vessel security and safety zone."

That can only mean that the Steering & Sailing rules are NOT suspended by the existence of the Exclusion Zone.


I think the trouble starts from assuming that the exclusion zone and Rule 8 cover the same ground and have the same purpose. They don't! So no reason to assume that one trumps the other.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

The larger ferries exceed 100 meters in length and so they are prohibited from operating within 2000 yards of a large ship. By the way, the tanker also has the security zone surrounding it.
Note I said freighter, not tanker, and freighters don't have a security zone. The Clipper is about 130 ft long, so greater than 100 ft, less than 100 m.

So my summary is this: The ferries are always the stand-on vessel. It's not just a good idea, it's the law!

So you believe the freighter to starboard, in a lane has to give way to the ferry?

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by TJ D

If they're showing somebody in the lanes their red, they will maintain course/speed, and they also give way then the situation is reversed. I've never heard any talk of security zones between the professionals. There's really no need-these things are handled early between the vessels in question with the assistance of VTS.

No they don't. VTS advises vessels at call-in points to expect traffic, but they rarely get involved in handling mundane crossings where the rules are pretty clear.
I believe that tankers are considered RAM by the time they get to the San Juan ferry crossing, so the ferry will give way all the time if this is the case, of course.
Tankers have their own security/safety zone, but they are not RAM. You won't find a single document that says they are.
Finally, if the Victoria clipper crossed a shipping lane/separation zone, and caused a collision with an 80,000 ton tanker following his lane, I can say with some confidence that the guy in his lane would come out pretty well.
You haven't answered the question of who is the give way vessel.
Again, VTS is a big help with this, and we're all talking to each other.

By the way, if anybody missed it, VTS strongly encourages everybody to listen in while out in covered waters.
It's a good resource when you're out there.

I agree that VTS/VTMS is a good resource, and also recommend all users listen, if not participate. But there are no rules requiring small recreational vessels to have VHF radios.

[Paul Elliott]

I have decided that, for the time being, I have no informed opinion on what happens between larger vessels. It's all very interesting, but I'm personally concerned about the rules in effect should I encounter a ferry (or any "zoned" vessel in a non-VTS/Traffic Lane situation).

I have always given way with plenty of time and distance so as not to create confusion, but I was doing this out of courtesy. Prior to this "Zone" business I believed that the ferry had no special legal rights and we were both under COLREGS rules. After all this discussion and reading I have concluded that the ferries now have special rights that trump COLREGS as far as I am affected.

Should I penetrate the "zone" I am subject to those zone-related penalties, but apparently COLREGS now effectively apply to both the ferry and myself. If I am now the stand-on vessel, perhaps the ferry will have time to give way, perhaps not. If we collide we will both be at fault.

[boatman61]

Entering a traffic lane should be done at the ends of the lane where possible, or at a shallow angle so as to blend into the traffic flow. Local traffic use the inshore zones and keep out of the lanes. If crossing a traffic-separation scheme, it is important that it is done as quickly as possible. Steer a course at right angles to the lane while not adjusting the course to allow for any sideways tidal effect, as this increases the time that it takes to cross.

Rule 17 is one of the harder rules to understand and to follow. If you are the ‘stand-on vessel’ then you cannot relax. Rule 17 has three stages and you must identify and assess each of them:
Rule 17(a)(i): when you are the ‘stand-on vessel’, you must keep your course and speed. You must not do anything unexpected.
Rule 17(a)(ii): ‘as soon as it becomes apparent’ that the give-way vessel is not taking appropriate action, then you may take your own action to avoid a collision.
Rule 17(b): when a collision cannot be avoided by the give-way vessel alone, then you must take the best action you can to avoid colliding. Your action under Rule 17(b) must still be in time to avoid a collision so you must not leave it too late. But do not go to port in a crossing situation– if the other ship goes to starboard, as it should, then both ships will turn towards each other. Do not forget the ‘wake up’ signal under Rule 34(d) on manoeuvring and warning signals. Blow your horn and flash your lights at the other vessel but think twice before calling it on VHF, because that always takes valuable time during which the risk of collision will increase.
Rule 10 (c) - “ A vessel shall so far as practicable avoid crossing the traffic lanes but if obliged to do so shall cross on a heading as nearly as practicable at right angles to the general direction of the traffic flow”. This reduces confusion and enables the vessel to cross as quickly as possible.
Rule 10 (e) - “A vessel other than a crossing vessel or a vessel joining or leaving a lane shall not normally enter a separation zone or cross a separation line except : 1. in case of emergency to avoid immediate danger : 2. to engage in fishing within the separation zone".
Rule 10 (f) - “A vessel navigating in areas near the terminations of traffic separation schemes shall do so with particular caution”.
Rule 10 (g) - “A vessel shall as far as practicable avoid anchoring in a traffic separation scheme or in areas near its terminations”.
Rule 10 (h) - "A vessel not using a traffic separation scheme shall avoid it by as wide a margin as is practicable".
Rule 10 (j) - " A vessel of less than 20m in length or a sailing vessel, shall not impede the safe passage or a power-driven vessel following a traffic lane".

(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.
(b) In construing and complying with these Rules, due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.

AKA... Use the Grey Matter and don't depend solely on the above or your screwed..