Ferry And Powerboat Collide

[TJ D]

Lodesman,

I never said that VTS makes passing arrangements. I said they were made between the vessels in question with the assistance of VTS. VTS does in fact get involved in these things, particularly when there's one or more party with a poor command of English. They also have the authority to DIRECT vessels.

Or do you also not agree with that?

I've seen tankers showing RAM lights on the approach to Anacortes. Maybe it's not the norm, but I've seen it done. I did not make a definitive statement in any case on this.

On the crossing situation, if a vessel is proceeding in a lane, then turns to collide with a vessel traveling in the opposing lane-- well, is that the question? Victoria Clipper does use the lanes, entering the lanes at the SA precautionary area. If they were to force the issue with another participating vessel in is zone (which could only happen in the precautionary area after the vessel had made her turn but before entering the next lane), they would technically have right of way for a short time. Is that what you're getting at?

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by boatman61

AKA... Use the Grey Matter and don't depend solely on the above or your screwed..

Uhh, none of this matters - there's nothing there that prohibits the ferry from crossing the lane; there's nothing that changes what happens in the lanes vis-à-vis rule 15. I still don't know what your point is.

BTW, it's snowing here, so yeah a pretty boring w'end.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Uhh, none of this matters - there's nothing there that prohibits the ferry from crossing the lane; there's nothing that changes what happens in the lanes vis-à-vis rule 15. I still don't know what your point is.

BTW, it's snowing here, so yeah a pretty boring w'end.

Where did I say a ferry is prohibited from crossing the lanes..
But then again.. winding folk ups a good way to kill boredom.. often revert to that myself..

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by TJ D

Lodesman,

I never said that VTS makes passing arrangements. I said they were made between the vessels in question with the assistance of VTS. VTS does in fact get involved in these things, particularly when there's one or more party with a poor command of English. They also have the authority to DIRECT vessels.

Or do you also not agree with that?
They can get involved and issue directions, but that is atypical. Most vessels just follow the rules without calling on VTS.

I've seen tankers showing RAM lights on the approach to Anacortes. Maybe it's not the norm, but I've seen it done. I did not make a definitive statement in any case on this.

Are you sure you saw a RAM signal and aren't confusing an all-round red over masthead and perhaps port running lights.

On the crossing situation, if a vessel is proceeding in a lane, then turns to collide with a vessel traveling in the opposing lane-- well, is that the question? Victoria Clipper does use the lanes, entering the lanes at the SA precautionary area. If they were to force the issue with another participating vessel in is zone (which could only happen in the precautionary area after the vessel had made her turn but before entering the next lane), they would technically have right of way for a short time. Is that what you're getting at?

I used the Clipper as a prop, but we can go with it. Coming into Seattle the Clipper leaves his lane, does a hard left turn, crosses the separation zone and the northbound lane. Or any other ferry is crossing the lanes and meets a freighter on its own starboard side. In either case, who do you consider is the give-way vessel?

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Where did I say a ferry is prohibited from crossing the lanes..
But then again.. winding folk ups a good way to kill boredom.. often revert to that myself..

Then what did you mean by "Check the rules for crossing shipping lanes for ALL shipping including other freighter's.. "? Just a wind-up?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Then what did you mean by "Check the rules for crossing shipping lanes for ALL shipping including other freighter's.. "? Just a wind-up?

Deliberate barracking methinks..
That was referring to a ferry or other commercial vessel obliged to cross a shipping lane.. nothing about they cannot.
If there is risk of collision the ferry alters course to stbd and passes astern of the freighter.. unless as in the English Channel its wide enough for the 80,000tonner to give way to the ferry.
But that's it for me.. I'll leave you to gnaw on your bone..

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

I used the Clipper as a prop, but we can go with it. Coming into Seattle the Clipper leaves his lane, does a hard left turn, crosses the separation zone and the northbound lane. Or any other ferry is crossing the lanes and meets a freighter on its own starboard side. In either case, who do you consider is the give-way vessel?

What goes on between commercial passenger vessels and freighters is spelled out in the CFRs and USCG district policy. Most of the folks that need to know have read up on these.

The regular skippers of the pax boats and the pilots of the frieghters will know all the relevant rules and behave accordingly or work out something between themselves via VHF. They get paid to know and there isn't much if any need to advertise to the general public.

The rules for interaction between PAC vessels and pleasure boats (that's us) have been widely and the multiple means informed very succinctly what we are required to do:
1. Stay 100y away
2. Do as told within 500y
We don't generally need to know how the commercial folks interact so it's not well publicized.

I understand the desire to know show everybody is supposed to interact, but if you as a pleasure boater want to know the rules between commercial cargo and pax vessels, you are going to have to dig for it. And you can't assume that all the rules that apply to you are going to apply to them in the same way or even at all in some cases.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Deliberate barracking methinks..
Is that the Aussie or Brit meaning?
That was referring to a ferry or other commercial vessel obliged to cross a shipping lane.. nothing about they cannot.
If there is risk of collision the ferry alters course to stbd and passes astern of the freighter.. unless as in the English Channel its wide enough for the 80,000tonner to give way to the ferry.
But that's it for me.. I'll leave you to gnaw on your bone..

So you figure the ferry should give way unless it's wide enough for the freighter to give way - how the F#$K is either vessel able to make the determination that they should give way or stand on????

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Adelie

What goes on between commercial passenger vessels and freighters is spelled out in the CFRs and USCG district policy. Most of the folks that need to know have read up on these.

Yeah! It says follow the colregs, and that applies to all vessels (commercial and pleasure). It would be, in fact, very gratifying if, but by looking at the responses on this forum - not likely that most of the folks that need to know, have read up on these. Pleasure boaters need to know too.

The regular skippers of the pax boats and the pilots of the frieghters will know all the relevant rules and behave accordingly or work out something between themselves via VHF. They get paid to know and there isn't much if any need to advertise to the general public.

The colregs are laid out in black and white - there is rarely ever a need to arrange a passing by VHF, unless they want to do something that is contrary to the rules - such as passing green to green in a head-on situation.

The rules for interaction between PAC vessels and pleasure boats (that's us) have been widely and the multiple means informed very succinctly what we are required to do:
1. Stay 100y away
2. Do as told within 500y
We don't generally need to know how the commercial folks interact so it's not well publicized.

Again the CFR is available for all to read - it's right there that the security and safety zones apply to ALL VESSELS, not just pleasure vessels.

I understand the desire to know show everybody is supposed to interact, but if you as a pleasure boater want to know the rules between commercial cargo and pax vessels, you are going to have to dig for it. And you can't assume that all the rules that apply to you are going to apply to them in the same way or even at all in some cases.

Have you ever read colregs? They apply to ALL VESSELS. Unless you hoist that in, you should stay ashore.

[senormechanico]

Rule of Tonnage is 99% of how things work.
Simple, stay the heck out of the way of a BIG, SLOW TURNING, SLOW TO STOP boat, ESPECIALLY when you're on vacation and the big boat is on the job.

Further, if you're in a busy area and have to take a dump, look around for a safe place to just STOP THE DAMN BOAT !!

Over 200 posts on what ought to be obvious...

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Have you ever read colregs? They apply to ALL VESSELS. Unless you hoist that in, you should stay ashore.

Yes I've read them, and taught classes on them.

I even read Rule 1 which, to paraphrase, says countries get to make special rules for there own waters. Here it is so you too can read it finally: http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName...sContent#rule1

This rule specifically mentions roadsteads which Puget Sound would fall under.


Thus CFRs as modified by DoHS and USCG policies are the last word on the rules of the road not the COLREGS.

In non-territorial "High Seas" the COLREGS govern, though I'm pretty there's verbiage in the CFRs that allow USCG and US DoD vessels to exercise some jusrisdiction and control of other US flagged vessels in their vicinity i.e. they can tell US flagged vessels to alter course even if they are the Give Way vessel in a crossing/collision situation.

No country is going to allow the COLREGS to be the last word in their own territorial waters or even within their EEZ.

Currently South Africa is not allowing the stricken cargo ship 'Antaois' to approach within 30nm of its coast until all bunkers are emptied. France, Spain and Portugal did that with the 'Presige' in 2002, only the vessel was already 50nm off and they wanted it to keep going.

How many of the other COLREGS did you miss? Maybe you should read them all before going out again. A few CFRs might be in order too.

[tkeithlu]

No, the hapless skipper said that if his boat had been a Bayliner, it would be kindling. The term "Bayliner" has two interpretations.

Looks like the ferry went hard astern, but much too late. But damn, what ferry skipper would realize while he still had time to stop or turn, that that boat, stand on or not, was going to ignore his presence and hit him? Right of way is meaningless when one vessel takes much longer to alter course than the other.

I rode a tanker into port with my father in law (then an Aransas Pass pilot); small sailboats kept cutting across his bow when he was confined to the channel and took the better part of a mile to stop. Then there was the family that camped on the channel spoil pile at night......

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Yes I've read them, and taught classes on them.

Well that's the blind leading the blind. Pay attention, and you might actually learn what they mean.

I even read Rule 1 which, to paraphrase, says countries get to make special rules for there own waters. Here it is so you too can read it finally: http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName...sContent#rule1

Well did you read CFR 165.1317 (e), where it says the colregs shall be followed in the security and safety zones? Or did you read the part of rule 1, that says special rules must conform as closely as possible to the colregs? Did any of that sink in?

In non-territorial "High Seas" the COLREGS govern, though I'm pretty there's verbiage in the CFRs that allow USCG and US DoD vessels to exercise some jusrisdiction and control of other US flagged vessels in their vicinity i.e. they can tell US flagged vessels to alter course even if they are the Give Way vessel in a crossing/collision situation.

A vessel's flag country exercises jurisdiction over it on the high seas.

No country is going to allow the COLREGS to be the last word in their own territorial waters or even within their EEZ.

You say you taught colregs, eh? And yet you don't seem to know that the signatories to the IMO conventions on the IRPCS (colregs), by signing are required to enact the colregs as law within their own jurisdictions. Most countries on this planet have made the colregs law in their territorial waters.

How many of the other COLREGS did you miss? Maybe you should read them all before going out again. A few CFRs might be in order too.

You really want to get into a colregs argument? You'd better stay ashore.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by senormechanico

Rule of Tonnage is 99% of how things work.
Simple, stay the heck out of the way of a BIG, SLOW TURNING, SLOW TO STOP boat, ESPECIALLY when you're on vacation and the big boat is on the job.

Ask any driver of those big, slow turning, slow to stop boats, and 99% will tell you that recreational boats should just obey the colregs. Rule of tonnage is not how it works, and it gives MMs another grey hair every time a WAFI or PAFI does something unexpected.

Originally Posted by senormechanico

Further, if you're in a busy area and have to take a dump, look around for a safe place to just STOP THE DAMN BOAT !!

Over 200 posts on what ought to be obvious...

You're absolutely right, that is obvious. Unfortunately, most of the 200 posts are on other tangents.

[StuM]

There's none so blind as those that will not see.