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Old 28-01-2022, 09:04   #16
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Cool Re: Help - outboard powered pocket cruisers

My corsair 27 uses a 9.9 Yamaha. I get an easy 7.5 knots and I can't remember when I filled my 6 gal tank.
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Old 28-01-2022, 09:06   #17
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Re: Help - outboard powered pocket cruisers

Tuffr2,
When time permits, go to c-brats.com as this is a friendly group, that offers plenty of info and examples of relatively light outboard cruisers.
Best regards,
Steve Baum
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Old 28-01-2022, 09:39   #18
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Re: Help - outboard powered pocket cruisers

Ranger Tugs has switched mostly to outboard power in their smaller pocket cruisers. Well built boats with good layouts.

https://www.rangertugs.com/
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Old 28-01-2022, 10:00   #19
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Re: Help - outboard powered pocket cruisers

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewMoon View Post
The size of outboard needed for a planing hull depends on hull design and weight.If you want smaller lighter and very easy to tow, the C-Dory 22 Cruiser works well with 90-115hp. C-Dory's in 23', 25', and 26' work well with 150-200hp. C-Dory Tomcat 255, a catamaran capable of much higher speeds, works well with a pair of 150hp. All are well-designed small cruisers, packing carefully thought out features into a small space. Simple and seaworthy - we cruised SE Alaska for two months in our 22.

You might also consider Ranger Tug 23, 25 and 27 outboard models.
Add Cutwater to the list. Ranger and Cutwater designs are excellent and provide a comfortable and useable cruiser that can haul butt. Also, pulled the pin on a Ranger 29.
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Old 28-01-2022, 10:03   #20
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Re: Help - outboard powered pocket cruisers

Quote:
Originally Posted by rslifkin View Post
Any way you power it, going fast costs a ton of fuel. And the heavier the boat gets, the worse the penalty (compared to optimizing for slow speeds).

For perspective, my boat (straight shaft inboards) with twin 340hp 7.4 liter V8s of 1980s technology has a fast cruise of about 17 kts at 3300 RPM. At that speed, fuel burn is about 30 gallons/hour (total). Slow down to a nice, easy pace of 6.5 - 7 kts (1300 rpm) and fuel burn drops to about 5 gallons/hour. Put a pair of modern diesels in the same boat and 17 kts will burn no more than 20 gallons/hour, the 6.5 kt slow cruise would burn not much over 2 gallons/hour.
For another perspective: Loaded up for a long trip, our C-Dory 22 Cruiser with a 90hp 2-stroke Yamaha cruised at 15-17 knots. Over many tanks of fuel we averaged 3 nautical miles per gallon, or about 5-6 gallons per hour. With a modern 4-stroke, it would do considerably better, probably 4-4.5 nmpg. Weight makes a huge difference.
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Old 28-01-2022, 10:06   #21
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Re: Help - outboard powered pocket cruisers

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewMoon View Post
For another perspective: Loaded up for a long trip, our C-Dory 22 Cruiser with a 90hp 2-stroke Yamaha cruised at 15-17 knots. Over many tanks of fuel we averaged 3 nautical miles per gallon, or about 5-6 gallons per hour. With a modern 4-stroke, it would do considerably better, probably 4-4.5 nmpg. Weight makes a huge difference.

Yup, weight is a huge factor in efficiency running at planing speeds. My boat comes in at about 27k lbs with full tanks and a normal load of stuff (plus a bit for people and dog). Judging by the spec-ed weight for a C-Dory 22, I'd expect you were probably around 3000 - 3500 lbs all up.



Modern diesels would get my boat to about 3 nmpg at slow speeds, but it'll never do better than 1 nmpg at best on plane. With the gassers, it's about 0.5 - 0.6 nmpg on plane, 1.2 - 1.3 at slow cruise.
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Old 28-01-2022, 10:24   #22
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Re: Help - outboard powered pocket cruisers

Quote:
Originally Posted by MicHughV View Post
Outboards are renowned gas guzzlers..I speak from experience.....I got twin 150 Yammies on a 23' fishing boat.
It doesn't really help to go slow.....at slow speeds, I'm burning more fuel than on plane, outboards like to run at 3,000 rpm plus...I find that around 3,500 rpm plus gives best bang for the buck...
Actual numbers are usually more useful than blanket statements. A large part of the problem with crappy efficiency with outboards may be the "need" to go fast if you can. When underpowered or with hull shapes that can't plane anyway, going less than hull speed generally is quite efficient, outboard or inboard. Of course diesels deliver more energy per gallon. Going fast isn't efficient, but most people go fast if they can. I own a C-Dory 22 with a 90 Honda outboard. Here are some numbers for fuel economy with my normal load of 2 people, and supplies for a weekend...

RPM Knots KMPG
1000 3.4 6.8
1500 5.2 6.1
2000 5.6 5.2
2500 7.5 3.5
3000 9.4 3.8
3500 14.2 3.9
4000 19.1 3.3
4500 24.7 3.1
5000 27.4 2.9

The calculated hull speed on the C-Dory 22 would be about 6 knots...you can see the efficiency go down with additional speed in the water, and then up as the boat goes from pushing more water past hull speed to coming on plane, but at about half the fuel efficiency of <6 knots. Slow plane, which the flatter bottomed and lightweight C-Dory excels at, is more fuel efficient then fast plane. Nothing new in any of this. It is amazing how many boats I have been on where the operator cruises at just below the boat coming on step, thinking this is an efficient speed. Then they complain about the lousy fuel economy. Few even know what their hull speed would be.

A good lesson in fuel economy was given by Paul Sounders in his book "Arctic Solitare", when cruising north Hudson Bay. He didn't have access to supplies, including gasoline, very often, so he cruised at low speed and got his best mileage. The safety factor of lower-speed cruising in waters that offered no leeway for error was also very much on his mind. Great reading. Yes, you can generally swap economy for time, but most people will go fast if they can.
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Old 28-01-2022, 18:17   #23
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Re: Help - outboard powered pocket cruisers

I have added C-Dory and Cutwater to my list. I used the dealer locator for C-Dory and there is a dealer in Crystal River Florida. That is my old stomping grounds.

I am trying to figure out how fast I will want to go. In my runabout type boats I ran WOT to out run storms a few times but normally ran about 28 - 32 mph at 3,800 - 4,000rpm. That was in the sweet spot.

With a small cabin boat thinking I would just hunker down and wait out the storm instead of trying to out run it.

I have had 2 cycle outboards that I will agree use a lot of gasoline. But again, I thought a 4 cycle direct injected engine would be better than even an I/O for economy.

Oh, how about all the new fancy technology? I see on Yamaha engines they have new 'fly by wire' controls. No steering cables ?? No throttle cables ??? I really need to get out more.
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Old 30-01-2022, 10:08   #24
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Re: Help - outboard powered pocket cruisers

Humm - C-Dory does not have seats that I can fold out to sleep on. On nice nights I would prefer to sleep on the seats and not in a cabin. The Ranger Tug you can sleep on the seats but they are in the cabin. I used to sleep, depending on the night, under the canvas top and or side curtains and or aft curtain. Yes, any exposed parts of the sleeping bag would be wet from the always heavy dew. So I know about trying to dry the boat off in the morning.
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Old 30-01-2022, 14:39   #25
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Re: Help - outboard powered pocket cruisers

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuffr2 View Post
Humm - C-Dory does not have seats that I can fold out to sleep on. On nice nights I would prefer to sleep on the seats and not in a cabin. The Ranger Tug you can sleep on the seats but they are in the cabin. I used to sleep, depending on the night, under the canvas top and or side curtains and or aft curtain. Yes, any exposed parts of the sleeping bag would be wet from the always heavy dew. So I know about trying to dry the boat off in the morning.
The C-Dory 22 is all about a simple, small and light full cabin boat, with Pacific Northwest weather and trailerability in mind. It is light enough to tow handily with a moderate SUV or 1/2 ton truck. It is 7'8" beam. My CD22 sleeps me and wife fine in the V-berth (I'm 6'2") and two smaller folks on the fold-down dinette also in the cabin. I wouldn't advise more than 2 on a regular basis, and those 2 will feel crowded as it is. The cockpit is small, and there are no built-in seats outside the cabin, but many folks, including me, cover and use the cockpit during good weather. Foldable cots and lawn chairs that store in the V-berth during motoring offer outdoor living and more room during nice weather. Cabin additions most often include a diesel heater in the PNW. Air conditioners are common in hot/humid areas. Ranger Tugs and the Regal 26 are another level of finish altogether. I would consider them luxurious, but I started boating and camping with kayaks, canoes and a daysailer. I would consider a C-Dory 25 or Ranger 27 since I can also trailer without permits, but price and desire to personalize brought me to the bare-bones C-Dory 22. I'd also need to buy a heavier truck to tow, as I would with a Regal 26. All are nice boats, but with heavier boats and more powerful motors I'd also need more $ to operate them. Cruising at about 20 knots I find Ranger Tug 27 = 2.3, Regal 26 = 2.0, CD25 = 3.1 and CD22 = about 3.3 kmpg. Not really bad for any of them if you can keep off the throttle.
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Old 30-01-2022, 19:06   #26
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Re: Help - outboard powered pocket cruisers

I also camped where we filled out little runabout boat of 16' with and 85HP motor with tents, coolers, picnic basket and motored out to a boat only access camping area. Man those were the days. I also stayed 9 days on my little runabout boat with 3 dogs. That was also a great time.

Any boat with a cabin would be luxury for me as my experience has been any rain would get me and the dogs wet. The sunbrella covers would be rain resistant and not rain proof.

I can see trying to stay 2 weeks on this boat. Of course going to the marina to eat and other things. Get on land and walk around etc. I have a F-250 so towing would not be an issue. Up to the Regal 26. That is about the biggest I would want to tow.

I am now going to look at 21 foot cuddy cabin boats on-line.
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Old 30-01-2022, 23:20   #27
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Re: Help - outboard powered pocket cruisers

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuffr2 View Post
Thanks for the insight and trying to bring me up to speed on trailerable cabin boats. I have been looking at Ranger Tugs on-line. That is an option. Also looking on-line at some I/O boats but really want an outboard. Owning a boat with a cabin is on my bucket list.

I am surprised that the newer 4 stroke outboards use a lot of gasoline. I thought they were as efficient as the same HP I/O.
I suspect someone is talking about running wide open throttle. Yes, if you run WOT, you will burn a lot of gas.

If you are going to plane, you want to be fully up on plane but not flat out.

If you slow down to 80% of hull speed, you will get good MPG but on a 25ft boat with a 20ft waterline, it's not going to be very fast. Most people simply don't do it because they want to go faster. The bigger issue is most planing boats don't have the directional stability at slow speed, so you are constantly adjusting the steering to keep her pointed in the right direction.

Also, if you look at $/mile, if you are trailering, you can fill up at regular gas stations, often saving $1/gal over marina fuel.

Also don't expect 30-40% MPG jump for diesel (all else being equal). Those are theoretical numbers that generally don't hold up in practice.
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Old 31-01-2022, 11:32   #28
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Re: Help - outboard powered pocket cruisers

Yes, I would be trailering and I have been known to pull a boat out of the water and gas up at the local land based gas station. This accomplishes two things, cheaper gasoline and I get to stretch my legs.

The idea for me is I love the water and just sitting still and enjoying the water is as good as cruising. I will typically run in the sweet spot of 3,800 RPM. That is way more relaxing and quieter than any WOT.

I am seeing a lot more outboard powered boats than 10 years ago. This is good IMHO.
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Old 31-01-2022, 12:00   #29
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Re: Help - outboard powered pocket cruisers

The fuel bill is large for powered cruisers, less so for diesel. One will be burning a LOT of money into the tank every hour you are running. Displacement requires a lot of force to move aside or to ride fast on top of.

Simple fact: Power boating makes for an expensive but enjoyable hobby. Whereas the seasonal slip rental charges pale in significance to the fuel and maintenance expense. Towing a pocket cruiser a short distance is a reasonable expense and provides for flexibility of which local waters one is choosing to operate upon. Storing it on its trailer is also convenient and inexpensive. Often much less expensive and faster to tow a boat towards a destination then it is to drive it on its hull to a destination.

Good comment regarding the need for a proper sized tow vehicle and definitely a 4 x 4 for traction on slippery ramps. I would never use a 2 wheel drive vehicle for towing anything bigger than a modest ski boat or a PWC.

Bigger the rig towing the better for heavy boats and heavy trailers.

I have three sailboats, two of which have engines, none of which consume a lot of fuel, because the wind is the primary motive force, only use the iron jib to get into or out of the marina, or to transit a short distance if the wind is not up or from the bow and such non-planning craft require modest power using a proper high torque, low RPM propellor. The 25 foot day cruiser has an outboard [9.9 hp being much more than is required to obtain hull speed at just about 1/3 throttle], the other 45 foot yacht has an 130 hp inboard diesel with a straight shaft. The two passenger 18 foot trimaran is propelled by sail or by Penguin Feet drive, [Hobie's unique Mirage drive / pedal powered system] and zips along with little effort when the wind dies down.
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Old 31-01-2022, 20:06   #30
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Re: Help - outboard powered pocket cruisers

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
I suspect someone is talking about running wide open throttle. Yes, if you run WOT, you will burn a lot of gas.

If you are going to plane, you want to be fully up on plane but not flat out.

If you slow down to 80% of hull speed, you will get good MPG but on a 25ft boat with a 20ft waterline, it's not going to be very fast.
Excellent advice. It is INCREDIBLY important, if you want to save fuel, to know your effective hull speed. It would be about 6 knots or 7 mph for a 20 ft waterline. As mentioned earlier, I've been on dozens of boats where skippers were running just short of planing, thinking as long as they were not planing they should get good mileage. Pushing past hull speed was evidenced by kicking up a large bow wave and the bow starting to ride up that wave. At this point, much of your fuel's energy is going into producing that wave, not moving the boat forward. Note my numbers from my C-Dory 22 (w/ Honda 90), which has a hull speed of about 5.8 knots...

6.7 nmpg at 3.3 knots
6.0 nmpg at 4.5 knots
5.2 nmpg at 5.7 knots, just short of calculated hull speed
3.5 nmpg at 6.5 knots, just above calculated hull speed

The boat is fully planing at 12.3 knots and nmpg increases to 3.9!!!!

nmpg falls off as speed is increased above 12 knots, but remains near 3 nmpg up to about 30 knots, not much different than 3.5 nmpg at 6.5 knots. I often have to slow way down in this boat because the relatively flat bottom will pound you badly in waves.

Whether or not you would consider going 12 knots for 3.9 nmpg as a suitable compromise is up to you. If you want even better mileage then keep it about 5 knots. Longer boats have faster hull speeds. You don't really have much choice with a sailboat or full displacement trawler since they can't plane, but I've found if people CAN go fast, they typically WILL go fast, with associated higher fuel consumption. In that case, they shouldn't really complain about how nice it would be to have a sailboat and the better associated mileage. It is a choice.
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