Power Cat or Sailing Cat?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by bluenomads

We've been through the same. I also compared the fuel efficiency of published (some questionable of course) power cats that interested us. We finally found our boat that we hope will do what we want and probably many things you want to do too - they are out there, but there's not many!

We ended up with a 1998 50' aluminium power catamaran, narrow enough to potter through the French canals but with the range to go across oceans, strong enough to expedition in the PNW and far north and small enough to do the Great Loop and "European Great Loop". Old enough to be cheap enough for us . Small enough to be a big handful, big enough to handle some waves and wind. Big enough to handle weight and eventual conversion to hybrid electric, small enough to not need a crew .

You can find some facts and figures, comparisons etc. on our very basic blog bluenomads.blog.

Love the boat. If you don't mind my asking, how much did you pay?

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Love the boat. If you don't mind my asking, how much did you pay?

might give you an idea

https://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/1478289/

[bluenomads]

That's the boat and for sale price. With exchange fluctuations and some negotiation, it was less than A$190k and less than US$140k for various other listees' favourite currency. We're extremely happy with the boat .

[DeValency]

Dude,
With what I read in your questions here, the best thing for you is to take a cruise ship tour. Any real sailor need first of all a lot of common sense and the things you write don’t make much of it.
I don’t think you understood the discussion on the cruising generation. Maybe you’ll want to read it again - really slowly.

Just a friendly warning. If you have less than $500,000 to spend on a suitable motor cat plus a massive refit and fuel (you may want to consider towing a tank of fuel... )) don’t even think of this idea.
Good luck.

QUOTE=Chotu;2758232]This is a tough one.

I'm drawn to the idea of sailing and possibly crossing an ocean or two under sail. I've been sailing my whole life in North and South America.

I am trying to determine if my next boat should be a powercat or a sailing cat.

I like solitude and quiet living on the hook with an occasional stay in a marina.

I want range. I want to cross oceans without needing to fill up the tanks. I also want economy. I am happy to spend money on fuel. I mean you can buy a lot of fuel for the cost of sails and a rig. However, I'd like to get there efficiently and at a good speed.

For this reason I'm leaning toward a foiling power cat.

Does anyone think it's a stupid idea to forget all about sailing and just do a foiling power cat?

What about resale value?

I'm thinking of the thread "Cruising Sailboats a dying breed". It's pretty apparent people don't really want to sail anymore and as the current sailors age out, they are being replaced with people who want to charter or want to own simple, reliable boats that are easy to take out, run and maintain.

Does this mean a power cat is more attractive at resale these days and into the future?

They sure cost a lot more new right now. Why is that?[/QUOTE]

[Chotu]

Brilliant post, "dude.". Lol

If you had any experience at all with boats you might know one develops a list of wants and wishes regarding how they would want to use the proposed boat, then they work through the real life trade offs of actual boats to find the best set of trade offs to fulfill their list.

This is called a Design Statement or SOR.

Some friendly advice for you regarding reading. Half the thread talks about the fuel economy of the large cat I ALREADY OWN. You're one very confused, very poor reading, zero experience blow hard, my friend.

In this thread, constructive and intelligent members posted regarding my SOR and my existing 49ft catamaran. We worked through scenarios regarding keeping it just a power boat or completing the rig. The discussions were productive, helpful and filled with useful ideas and information regarding power cats.

Then you come in here like a complete n00b with no facts at all. I was a "real sailor" before you even had a boat my friend. I'm so experienced sailing that I'm bored with it. I'm going on 30 years of nearly continuous cruising here. I see you have 30 years on the water actually. So we're the same. Except you are working in an office and only have half a year sailing so I have double or more your sea miles/hours as I'm full time and live aboard cruiser who does not use marinas.

Don't post in my thread with your garbage. Take it somewhere else.

Originally Posted by DeValency

Dude,
With what I read in your questions here, the best thing for you is to take a cruise ship tour. Any real sailor need first of all a lot of common sense and the things you write don’t make much of it.
I don’t think you understood the discussion on the cruising generation. Maybe you’ll want to read it again - really slowly.

Just a friendly warning. If you have less than $500,000 to spend on a suitable motor cat plus a massive refit and fuel (you may want to consider towing a tank of fuel... )) don’t even think of this idea.
Good luck.

QUOTE=Chotu;2758232]This is a tough one.

I'm drawn to the idea of sailing and possibly crossing an ocean or two under sail. I've been sailing my whole life in North and South America.

I am trying to determine if my next boat should be a powercat or a sailing cat.

I like solitude and quiet living on the hook with an occasional stay in a marina.

I want range. I want to cross oceans without needing to fill up the tanks. I also want economy. I am happy to spend money on fuel. I mean you can buy a lot of fuel for the cost of sails and a rig. However, I'd like to get there efficiently and at a good speed.

For this reason I'm leaning toward a foiling power cat.

Does anyone think it's a stupid idea to forget all about sailing and just do a foiling power cat?

What about resale value?

I'm thinking of the thread "Cruising Sailboats a dying breed". It's pretty apparent people don't really want to sail anymore and as the current sailors age out, they are being replaced with people who want to charter or want to own simple, reliable boats that are easy to take out, run and maintain.

Does this mean a power cat is more attractive at resale these days and into the future?

They sure cost a lot more new right now. Why is that?

[/QUOTE]

[SteveSadler]

Fuel mileage can be optimized in 2 ways that I know of. Skin friction is the largest cause of drag and can't be changed beyond having a clean bottom. Its the result of your displacement.
Form drag increases with speed to be a major factor when approaching your hull speed.
On my Jeanneau 49 I get 6 mpg at 6 knots but 9mpg at 5 kts. The difference shows up in your stern wave. If you can see it it cost extra in fuel to go that speed. The bigger the wave the more it costs, until at 9 kts I probably get2 mpg.
Cats are more efficient but the same hold true, 8 kts will cost 50% more than 6kts.
Another variable is your engine size and rpm. My 75hp Yanmar used to need 2000 rpm to go 6 kts. After I increased the pitch 4" rpms dropped to 1500 for the same speed. This reduces the hp needed to overcome its own internal friction.

Some will say it's bad for the engine, but since the engine never works hard at any rpm in normal cruising mode, it makes no difference. If anything the higher exaust temp will help harden the carbon so it can fall off under heavy loads. I just take my injectors out and clean them when I see any white smoke.

[captainmarknc]

I used to ask myself the same question about a power cat vs sail as well. I think it comes down to a real blue water boat vs a coastal cruiser. If I were going to stay around the islands with trade winds, a sailing cat it would be. Coastal cruising would go power all day long.

If I wanted a power cruiser, I would probably go with a Dashew … incredible boat! SetSail FPB » Dashew Offshore

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Huge engines compared to my twin 30hp. That extra 6 knots really requires a lot of fuel and engine.

I'm getting 2.66 miles per gallon at 8 knots.

150 gallons capacity on mine now.

So that's 6 or 7 fuel stops for mine crossing the same 2700 miles. Still not possible of course.

Would you get 3.5 (or whatever) NMPG at 7 knots?

Increasing from 7 to 8 knots when we're at slow cruise costs us about an extra 1/2 NMPG... but that's with our big diesels. Dunno what the impact might be with small diesels on a powercat...

-Chris

[DeValency]

Agree with your analysis and that’s the best combination for a long ocean passage. With the right wind you’ll move well (I think you should be able to reach 8.5 Kts) at zero emissions, great balance and the best thing - no noise and vibrations!

When necessary, your 75HP Yanmar with the increased pitch prop is a good ratio, as we always want to keep a diesel engine on a max load for the best burn efficiency while eliminating cylinders glazing.


QUOTE=SteveSadler;2763057]Fuel mileage can be optimized in 2 ways that I know of. Skin friction is the largest cause of drag and can't be changed beyond having a clean bottom. Its the result of your displacement.
Form drag increases with speed to be a major factor when approaching your hull speed.
On my Jeanneau 49 I get 6 mpg at 6 knots but 9mpg at 5 kts. The difference shows up in your stern wave. If you can see it it cost extra in fuel to go that speed. The bigger the wave the more it costs, until at 9 kts I probably get2 mpg.
Cats are more efficient but the same hold true, 8 kts will cost 50% more than 6kts.
Another variable is your engine size and rpm. My 75hp Yanmar used to need 2000 rpm to go 6 kts. After I increased the pitch 4" rpms dropped to 1500 for the same speed. This reduces the hp needed to overcome its own internal friction.

Some will say it's bad for the engine, but since the engine never works hard at any rpm in normal cruising mode, it makes no difference. If anything the higher exaust temp will help harden the carbon so it can fall off under heavy loads. I just take my injectors out and clean them when I see any white smoke.[/QUOTE]

[col50]

Your'e not going to make it across an ocean on foils or on a planing boat without some fuel stops.
Just remember, cruising on a boat is the most expensive way to go 3rd class.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by col50

Just remember, cruising on a boat is the most expensive way to go 3rd class.

Only if you have a 3rd class boat.

[col50]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Only if you have a 3rd class boat.

Very funny, hahaha.

[Dooglas]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Only if you have a 3rd class boat.

There is a fundamental difference between the experience of crewing (i.e. working) on a first class boat and sleeping in its crew quarters, compared to being a guest on a first class boat and sleeping in a first class stateroom. Most long passages on a small cruising boat are a lot more like work, in my experience. .

[hyamsbeach]

Thanks Steve
That’s the way I’m heading.
I still lenjoy sailing but finding less time to pursue that love and get pissed off having to clean mouldy sails every winter autumn.
Looks like I will return to sail in the interim.

[CatNewBee]

I don't know what will happen when I get older, however I do enjoy the moment when the sails are up and I can shut the engines. Sailing is so quiet and pleasant, especially downwind with following seas - I guess I would miss this feeling on a power cat.

If I would buy a coastal cruising toy, it would be a vessel that has plenty of power to have some fun speeding around the islands. But a slow under-powered PC for long distance cruising with huge diesel tanks would probably not be on the top of my list.

But I never say never.