Power or Sail

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Open-d

I would prefer a power boat for several reasons.

Well, there ya go. Step 1: completed.

Originally Posted by Open-d

Range is my primary concern with a power boat. While fuel economy of the DD 53 and 71 series is a little lacking, their reliability and availability of parts etc is of great appeal.

What range do you want? Are you thinking ocean crosses? Or coastal? Or rivers? Or...?

Reading suggests the older DD 2-strokes are bullet-proof, but maybe also the population of skilled techs is getting a little thin on the ground.

It's not like there aren't boatloads of various engines out there, though... and it's not like some vessels can't carry a boatload of fuel...

-Chris

[koyote]

I have no desire at this time to cross big oceans, or even island hop the Caribbean. I'll be happy with eventually extending the range from the bay and ICW to - Maine to the horn of Texas and maybe some inland bits- coastal cruising.

By rights, that's a powerboat choice. Shallow draft, blue water on a weather window. Or a classic Taiwan looper.

However, we're the bohemians. And the truth is, if you aren't in a hurry, there are few ways to motor with as little fuel usage as sailboat. (I'm not going to bring up buehler and demasting and making elephants out of horses- not here)

If I had the money to motor around the Med, you betcha I'd be in a diesel duck doing my 8 or 9 knots under diesel power and banging around without a thought to the timing of the afternoon breeze.


But I don't, I'm not, and I'm okay at 4 knots with a 9.8 outboard and running up the jib and main when it's time.

Thing is- and this is important- I can change my mind. No boat is forever.

(still wish I had me a little albin 30, though. Maybe I'll go find a local Virginia deadrise and put a sedan on her)

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by koyote

I have no desire at this time to cross big oceans, or even island hop the Caribbean. I'll be happy with eventually extending the range from the bay and ICW to - Maine to the horn of Texas and maybe some inland bits- coastal cruising.

By rights, that's a powerboat choice. Shallow draft, blue water on a weather window. Or a classic Taiwan looper.

However, we're the bohemians. And the truth is, if you aren't in a hurry, there are few ways to motor with as little fuel usage as sailboat. (I'm not going to bring up buehler and demasting and making elephants out of horses- not here)

If I had the money to motor around the Med, you betcha I'd be in a diesel duck doing my 8 or 9 knots under diesel power and banging around without a thought to the timing of the afternoon breeze.


But I don't, I'm not, and I'm okay at 4 knots with a 9.8 outboard and running up the jib and main when it's time.

Thing is- and this is important- I can change my mind. No boat is forever.

(still wish I had me a little albin 30, though. Maybe I'll go find a local Virginia deadrise and put a sedan on her)

If it helps, a sister ship to my Willard 36 trawler went from Los Angeles to Hawaii (2400 nms) and burned 335 gallons diesel. I accompanied a friend on a Willard 40 trawler from Long Beach CA to La Paz MX (1200 nms) and burned around 275 gallons diesel. Now, combined these two boats don't have half the interior space of a Hatt 58, but you get the idea. Power doesn't have to be expensive, especially when you compare to all the stuff it takes to harness wind (plus still have an engine).

For a Hatt 58, I would budget around 1 gpm at 8-9 kts. Might be a tad less, but directionally accurate for planning purposes.

Really depends on how you prefer to travel.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by koyote

I have no desire at this time to cross big oceans, or even island hop the Caribbean. I'll be happy with eventually extending the range from the bay and ICW to - Maine to the horn of Texas and maybe some inland bits- coastal cruising.

By rights, that's a powerboat choice. Shallow draft, blue water on a weather window. Or a classic Taiwan looper.

However, we're the bohemians. And the truth is, if you aren't in a hurry, there are few ways to motor with as little fuel usage as sailboat. (I'm not going to bring up buehler and demasting and making elephants out of horses- not here)

If I had the money to motor around the Med, you betcha I'd be in a diesel duck doing my 8 or 9 knots under diesel power and banging around without a thought to the timing of the afternoon breeze.


But I don't, I'm not, and I'm okay at 4 knots with a 9.8 outboard and running up the jib and main when it's time.

Thing is- and this is important- I can change my mind. No boat is forever.

(still wish I had me a little albin 30, though. Maybe I'll go find a local Virginia deadrise and put a sedan on her)

If it helps, a sister ship to my Willard 36 trawler went from Los Angeles to Hawaii (2400 nms) and burned 335 gallons diesel. I accompanied a friend on a Willard 40 trawler from Long Beach CA to La Paz MX (1200 nms) and burned around 275 gallons diesel. Now, combined these two boats don't have half the interior space of a Hatt 58, but you get the idea. Power doesn't have to be expensive, especially when you compare to all the stuff it takes to harness wind (plus still have an engine).

For a Hatt 58, I would budget around 1 gpm at 8-9 kts (not including generator). Might be a tad less, but directionally accurate for planning purposes. A quick Google search shows the Hatt 58 LRC carries 2400 gals so enough to cross the ¿Te parece bien trabajar el martes a las 10:00 a. m.? Esperamos conocerte a ti y a tu hija. Te enviaré los diagramas y la lista de tareas antes de las 12:00 p. m. de mañana. easily if so desired.

Really depends on how you prefer to travel.

[koyote]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

If it helps, a sister ship to my Willard 36 trawler went from Los Angeles to Hawaii (2400 nms) and burned 335 gallons diesel. I accompanied a friend on a Willard 40 trawler from Long Beach CA to La Paz MX (1200 nms) and burned around 275 gallons diesel.

all doable... if I can afford the boat

That's really half of it, though. In the current market you can get a really nice diesel inside a sailboat hull for 1/3 or 1/4 the price of a slightly larger diesel in a trawler hull.

it's the bohemian thing popping its gypsy head up again. I could, very honestly, happily coastal cruise with a 32 or 34 foot displacement trawler. No hurry, no worries.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by Open-d

A secure cockpit a level or two above the main deck is greatly appealing.

Try going across the tradewinds on a flybridge and you will quickly change appealing to appalling.

[MicHughV]

#1. Most sailors motor a lot more than they'll ever admit.

#2. Some years back I helped on a delivery of a trawler to the Carib. I don't generally get seasick, but day after day of bashing my brains out and moving sideways back and forth and being covered in salt spray from head to toe got me close. It was as miserable a trip I've ever done.

Having a motor (or two) does not alleviate the relentless moving of a powerboat bashing to weather.

By comparison, a sailboat, sailing to weather, can use it's sails as a "steadying" force, and while you will be heeled over, the motion, in my humble opinion, is a lot more tolerable.

Not much too pick from however, between the two. If you are on your average sized 45 footer, be it power or sail, you will have a tough time bashing to weather.

I sometimes wonder why we do it ??

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

#1. Most sailors motor a lot more than they'll ever admit.

#2. Some years back I helped on a delivery of a trawler to the Carib. I don't generally get seasick, but day after day of bashing my brains out and moving sideways back and forth and being covered in salt spray from head to toe got me close. It was as miserable a trip I've ever done.

Having a motor (or two) does not alleviate the relentless moving of a powerboat bashing to weather.

By comparison, a sailboat, sailing to weather, can use it's sails as a "steadying" force, and while you will be heeled over, the motion, in my humble opinion, is a lot more tolerable.

Not much too pick from however, between the two. If you are on your average sized 45 footer, be it power or sail, you will have a tough time bashing to weather.

I sometimes wonder why we do it ??

I was a full-time delivery skipper for around 5-years and have around 35k miles delivering motoryachts/trawlers between Alaska and Florida - about 80% of my work was uphill from SoCal to PNW. Have had my share of snotty days, but for the most part, pretty civilized way to travel. No dog food bowls needed. As a matter of fact, after Year 1, I stopped delivering sailboats altogether because they are cold, wet, and slow. Plus, for deliveries, sailors are dang cheap - they seem to think a skipper should pay them for the privelage of sailing their boat.

[Open-d]

Originally Posted by ranger58sb

Well, there ya go. Step 1: completed.




What range do you want? Are you thinking ocean crosses? Or coastal? Or rivers? Or...?

Reading suggests the older DD 2-strokes are bullet-proof, but maybe also the population of skilled techs is getting a little thin on the ground.

It's not like there aren't boatloads of various engines out there, though... and it's not like some vessels can't carry a boatload of fuel...

-Chris

Ocean crossing and med-cruising. The Hattaras LRC series appear to all-DD powered.

[Open-d]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Try going across the tradewinds on a flybridge and you will quickly change appealing to appalling.

I was talking about the inside cockpit, i.e. pilot house, if you will. One level below the flybridge.

[paul.devalier]

I liveaboard a sailboat and extensively researched the cost of a trawler vs sailboat. I also frequently compare lifestyle with my neighbours. I refer to 20 year old 14 meter or less motorboat vs sailboat.
There have been in this thread some great observations and also some incorrect statements, and so I'll try and add counterpoints but as 5BTM analysed I fall into a bohemian category and so ymmv.

It's true that to make my slip I'll motor to compensate for lack of wind. But there is no comparison to an hour of motor on a trawler and an hour of motor on my sailboat. These motors sip fuel and I average 250 liters of fuel each year.


You don't need 10 knots of wind to sail. In fact it can be unpleasant depending on the point of sail. I also find motoring at 10 knots or more very unpleasant on a 10-16 meter motorboat, especially if more than an hour. Summer in the med can vary from weeks of 3-5 knots breeze with intermittent strong winds and storm systems. So I cannot see how one could characterise summer as low wind. It's just not the case. But even if it were, I lift sail at 3 knots and happily cruise forward at a knot and half and simply change plans.
All boating is boating and the way I decided which way to live : motor, monohull or multi hull was to charter and rent for living on board (even without navigation) all the types for years until I realised for myself based on my own experience that the disadvantages of a monohull were my perfect balance of imperfection.

[GordMay]

The definitive guide to offshore powerboating

“Voyaging Under Power” ~ by Robert P. Beebe, updated by Denis Umstot [& previously by James F. Leishman]
➥ https://www.amazon.ca/Voyaging-Under.../dp/0071767339

Beebe’s trawler-to-truth [********] formula:
The weight of the ballast should equal 50 percent of the fuel weight.

More about: “The Pioneering Life and Legacy of Robert Beebe”
➥ https://www.passagemaker.com/lifesty...f-robert-beebe

Beebe's original “Passagemaker”

[GordMay]

For the "bi-curious", amongst us, the definitive guide to offshore powerboating

“Voyaging Under Power” ~ by Robert P. Beebe, updated by Denis Umstot [& previously by James F. Leishman]
➥ https://www.amazon.ca/Voyaging-Under.../dp/0071767339

Beebe’s trawler-to-truth [bullshti] formula:
The weight of the ballast should equal 50 percent of the fuel weight.

More about: “The Pioneering Life and Legacy of Robert Beebe”
➥ https://www.passagemaker.com/lifesty...f-robert-beebe

Beebe's original “Passagemaker”

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by paul.devalier

... But there is no comparison to an hour of motor on a trawler and an hour of motor on my sailboat. These motors sip fuel and I average 250 liters of fuel each year.

One hour of operating costs of a powerboat compared to a sailboat is way out of context. Total cost of operation comprises fixed and variable costs. Fuel consumption is easy to see as a variable cost because usage is linear - go X-miles, burn Y-liters. Sailboats have variable costs in rigging, running rigging, sails, hardware, etc. These all have finite lifespans and need replacement, albeit at long intervals so many sailors conveniently ignore the costs. With a powerboat, you are forced to buy diesel to get anywhere. With a sailboat, you have some latitude on when you cough-up the time and money. Steve Dashew replaced sails at 3400 hours of use but the sail still worked at slowly diminishing capacity - not like it ran out of fuel at 3401 hours.

I know of three folks who circumnavigated under sail and then went on to do significant multi-year passages on a trawler. All three said the same thing: costs between power and sail were effectively the same. The only caveat I'll add is that for folks on the ultra-low end of the personal wealth spectrum, it's a lot less expensive to shoe-string a sailboat than a powerboat - an old tired sail still sorta works. No diesel required. But most recreational sailors replace sails, rigging, and running rigging when they are end of life or become a safety hazard (or their insurance company mandates).

As they say "The wind may be free - catching it isn't."

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

...
As they say "The wind may be free - catching it isn't."

Very well said!