Power or Sail

[girdasso]

In my opinion, the "1/3 rule" is nonsense. I have cruised and raced in the Med for many years from Majorca in the west to Kusadasi in the east including Sardinia, the Amalfi coast, Croatia, and the Aegean and have rarely had to motor for lack of wind. The boats we sailed however were proper sailing boats - not heavy klunkers.

[5BTM]

Power for cruising the canals.

[KWF]

Originally Posted by Open-d

I have been considering cruising the Med or similar venue. I watch a lot of YouTube videos and have "learned" that in a sailboat you can expect to sail 1/3 or the time, power 1/3 or the time and sail under power 1/3 of the time.
Being becalmed appears to be a perennial problem.

If those figures are roughly accurate, it seems you would be better off, or nearly so, on a power boat such as a Hatteras LRC.

Is there a consensus on the desirability of an LRC or similar vessel, vs a single or mono-hull sailboat?

Depends in part on your cruising style. If you have a rigid plan, that is want to get to a specific harbor on a given day and require a certain host speed to do that yoy will motor slot of the time. If you are happy going as fast, or slow, as the wind will take you and find a place to dock, moor, or anchor based on that you’ll be sailing most of 5he time.

[Johan Leopard51]

Few people mention location or where the vessel will be most often used in what weather.

Unfortunately we can’t live aboard yet. So our time is holiday time and that is weather selected and that in Seychelles where ours is, is low wind. There are hundreds of sail charter vessels and I figure we see them under sail maybe 5% of the time.

imho most sail catamarans (vast majority there) are terrible at make way under power. We have 51 power cat and on the exact same trip same time, a 60 foot “sailing” cat returned 50% more fuel than the power cat (at about 7 knots average).

Summary : imho in low wind environments, sailing cats have too small motors.

[Greg K]

Just came back from a two weeks cruise to Ibiza on our boat. Two eighty miles passages there and back from our home port in Valencia. Used about 5 gallons of diesel in total.

Had very good sailing windows both ways. If you're willing and able to go when the wind is there, sailing in the Med is usually not a problem.

Time is your friend, not diesel. Keeping to schedules is what makes passage making miserable, and a powerboat isn't the magic pill to fix that.

[gordonhinds]

The comments about how much diesel is used when sailing missed the point. It costs a lot to have the ability to sail. If you add up that cost (sails/rig/running gear etc) sailing is more expensive per n/m than a power boat cruising at 10-15 knots. If you cross oceans, sailing becomes cheaper, but not a lot.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by gordonhinds

The comments about how much diesel is used when sailing missed the point. It costs a lot to have the ability to sail. If you add up that cost (sails/rig/running gear etc) sailing is more expensive per n/m than a power boat cruising at 10-15 knots. If you cross oceans, sailing becomes cheaper, but not a lot.

Upthread, Sailorboy1, who has tracked and shared his expenses over 7-years, describes that he seriously considered converting from sail to power (trawler) before he lost his sailboat in a collision. From memory, I believe his costs all-in were around $40k/year for full-time liveaboard over 7-years. His estimate was that power over the same period would have been around $1500 additional per year, or around 4%. He seemed to add that his sails and rigging were due for replacement - had he done so, his costs for power would be a wash compared to sail. This tracks closely with others who have cruised long range on both power and sail.

For people who love to sail, they should absolutely do so. It's a special experience. But for those who's dream is more travel-focused, power/trawler should be on the table for consideration. What shouldn't be a consideration is the overall cost except in unusual circumstances (ultra-frugal/broke; fast circumnavigation).

[sailorboy1]

close enough

I got into boating to cruise. And I got into sailing because I didn't feel I could afford the fuel for a power boat.

In the end I would say that for most cruisers the only reason to cruise on a sailboat is because you like to sail.If not just get a power boat!

[gordonhinds]

Spot on. Sailing is a preference in terms of quiet motion assuming you are sailing and not motor sailing. But it is by no means free as the cost of being able to sail are not inconsiderable. To live and run your yacht annually if done with proper maintenance is easily $50k a year. I know many top sailors who race yachts that have power boats for cruising. It’s easier and maybe even a bit cheaper. No boating however is by any means cheap unless it’s in a very small and old boat.

[Kazamaran]

Well………..obviously sailing style is a factor when it comes to cost. I’ve met some sailors on deliveries that sort of acted like frustrated motor yacht people. I think to truly enjoy sailing/cruising you have to get your head around the eco side of things. After all, there’s a mystique to traveling by wind right? Otherwise, what’s the point. I’ve never met anyone who bought a sailboat with traveling cheap as their first love. I think cruising sailors like to tinker. With cruising sailors, it’s like a blood lust. If you hate the thought of tinkering, buy a skateboard. One thing though, I am confused about the math and commentary regarding a cost comparison between trawlers and sailboats. On equally moving boats, I’d like to point out some quick math. Fuel costs for 10000 miles per year on a trawler at an average of say 8-10 gallons per hour and over 10 years, is a lot of rig on a sailboat! Even if the sailboat ran 30% of that at its measly 1.0 gallon per hour (which is high on a 40-45 foot boat), the delta is huge. 10000/9 x $5pg = $7,857 US x 10 years= $78,570.00 in fuel alone. Assuming all other systems crap out evenly, that’s a lot of rig! And we won’t take into account the better than 10000 hours on the trawler engines. I just think taking the conversation in that direction is senseless. The op asked about differences between the two in terms of character. A cost comparison quite frankly is ludicrous IMHO………..at best. I’ve owned both…….

[gordonhinds]

10,000 miles per year is huge. Most power boats where I live would be lucky to do 1,000 miles, more like 500 miles or less. Similar for sailboats. A few would do 2,000 miles per year. So it’s at best a fifth of what your math is saying (which I don’t doubt). If you do big mileages then sailing becomes ‘cheaper’. Shorter mileages, sailing is more expensive. Sailing is not as cheap as it’s made out to be. Over ten years you could easily spend $30,000 on rig and sails and running gear. Sailing is far more enjoyable - once you actually sail, not motor sail.

[Johan Leopard51]

We have a Leopard 51 Powercat. I’d say she does about 200-250 hours a year mostly at around 7-8 knots so call it 1600nm per year. Consumption-wise we do a bit over 1liter/km so a bit under 2nm/us gallon. That shoots up VERY quickly when for some daft reason the team wants to do 20+ knots.

I’ve also done outer islands on a 60 foot sail cat and her consumption was almost 50% WORSE because of low-wind when had to motor sail the big hop of about 125nm.

So for sure in low-wind, large sailing cat are NOT the way to go if want to maintain around 7 knots : their motors are not as fuel efficient as the two 370Hp motors in the leopard. And obviously it cannot do high speed at all under motor.

I do love feel of vessel under sail, and I hate diesel maintenance cost and hassle, but would for tropics NEVER trade the benefits of having a large covered flybridge. We spend most of our time up there and it is one of my favorite sleeping spots too.

So I’d say for selecting, FIRST decide WHERE you’ll spend most time in what weather.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Kazamaran

Fuel costs for 10000 miles per year on a trawler at an average of say 8-10 gallons per hour and over 10 years...

More like 2-4 GPH, depending on boat. Peter's Weebles is probably at the 2 GPH mark or less.

Even we can do ~4 GPH at 8 kts much of the time, ~ 2 NMPG, with 1800 hp.

In our case, depends on sea states, wind, current and so forth... and we're not stabilized so sea states often inform our speed selections... but a stabilized "trawler" of some sort relatively economical to run and comfortable at the same time.

-Chris

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by ranger58sb

More like 2-4 GPH, depending on boat. Peter's Weebles is probably at the 2 GPH mark or less.

Over 2200 nms from San Diego to near Guatemala border, I've averaged around 1-1/4 goh and close to 6.5 kts. I don't keep great records, but something within rifle shot of 5 nms per gal.

I chose my boat - an old Bill Garden full displacement double ender - because I liked her looks. I like older stuff. Cars, houses, motorcycles, you get the idea. No magic beyond that.

I chose power over sail because I just didn't find sailing that exhilarating. I've sailed a bunch and owned a couple sailboats, but it just wasn't enough fun to offset the compromises for me. I just hate putting a sail cover on the main at the end of the day (example). But I love being on the water, and I love exploring at jogging speed.

No science to it. No twisted economic justification. Just what works for us. We've owned Weebles for 25 years now and she will be out Last Boat. Been a great run so far.

[Open-d]

Originally Posted by girdasso

In my opinion, the "1/3 rule" is nonsense. I have cruised and raced in the Med for many years from Majorca in the west to Kusadasi in the east including Sardinia, the Amalfi coast, Croatia, and the Aegean and have rarely had to motor for lack of wind. The boats we sailed however were proper sailing boats - not heavy klunkers.

As I recall, I heard those figures from an ex-Navy Fighter pilot who lives in La Rochelle, FR, and spends a great deal of time cruising in the Atlantic single-handed. I can't recall his name. I also watch Adventures of an Old Seadog. Nobody said or inferred that this rule was specific to the Med, but Cruisers in general. But hey, you got your spank-down in and that's all that matters, right?