Tug compared to trawler as cruisers

[ZULU40]

Originally Posted by Wckoek

Yes, the Eco cruiser D37 can post equal numbers at hull speed, but it is a larger boat with even better range.
I believe Van De Stadt's Stadtline 38 can have equal or better fuel economy at hull speed if fitted with a smaller engine. Also a larger boat with good fuel economy.

look I dont post to be argumentative but I feel like Im wasting my time here and this is just a farce. From the companies own resources they are claiming this 15.3k lbs. boat has 132 galls of fuel for 800 n. miles at 7 knots and 3.4 MPG at 12 knots.

Thats quite a ways out of the ballpark to be 'equal numbers'. Really your target (the source of which alludes me) is approximately illustrated below. For the reasons Stumble pointed out earlier, displacements errs toward light.

Eco Marine Technologies | Specification

[Doug4bass]

As a child of the 60s....I always thought trawlers were something the Russians went snooping around in.

[Wckoek]

Originally Posted by ZULU40

look I dont post to be argumentative but I feel like Im wasting my time here and this is just a farce. From the companies own resources they are claiming this 15.3k lbs. boat has 132 galls of fuel for 800 n. miles at 7 knots and 3.4 MPG at 12 knots.

Thats quite a ways out of the ballpark to be 'equal numbers'. Really your target (the source of which alludes me) is approximately illustrated below. For the reasons Stumble pointed out earlier, displacements errs toward light.

Eco Marine Technologies | Specification

Sorry, I hope you didn't misunderstand what I am saying, I am not refuting the fuel efficientcy of the cat, I am saying on the light displacement displacement cat design, in point the Roger Hill 10.2m wasn't really a lot more fuel efficient than light displacement monohull of equal size. I am just pointing to that one design and thinking that under 40 feet, the benefit of powered cat wasn't really that apparent to monohull.

The benefit might really comes when it comes to larger size like Adastra, Sunreef 70 or maybe the 19.8m on Roger Hills site.

[ZULU40]

Originally Posted by Wckoek

Sorry, I hope you didn't misunderstand what I am saying, I am not refuting the fuel efficientcy of the cat, I am saying on the light displacement displacement cat design, in point the Roger Hill 10.2m wasn't really a lot more fuel efficient than light displacement monohull of equal size. I am just pointing to that one design and thinking that under 40 feet, the benefit of powered cat wasn't really that apparent to monohull.

The benefit might really comes when it comes to larger size like Adastra, Sunreef 70 or maybe the 19.8m on Roger Hills site.

Yeah, these boats are optimised for waterline length because that affects boat speed. Over hundreds of miles that makes a difference. But its early days for displacement multihulls and more variety will encourage less extreme ideas.

Personally I think theres a sweet spot in lower 30s foot range. Big enough to liven on, small enough to construct, cheap enough to facilitate on a tighter budget.

[Wckoek]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Interesting!
If I were choosing/comparing between power boat and sail (motor sail) I would shortlist the choice to an Ocean going Trawler and a offshore designed sailing Cat and weigh the pros and cons.

Both at the same price range of say around $650k and designed for comfortable live aboard for 4.

I have not priced and compared what you can buy, but it would be an interesting excercise.

1... Cabins... do I really want a grand cabin for owner or am I happy with one hull for myself?

2.... Range and redundancy... I think the sailing cat wins hands down for unlimited range and backup diesel engine for powering. Fuel cost is not the issue, but availability and quality is... If remote cruising

Also, the majority of diesel consumption is often from running generator at anchor, if not energy independent.

3..... Solar footprint favors the sailing cat to be energy independent

4.....Main salon and pilothouse...favors the trawler as does 'bale capacity' (storage)

5.....comfort at anchor.....sailing cat....

6.....underway dependent on point of sail but upwind favors trawler

What other comparisons should we consider?

Is that price range too low? Should it be higher?...
....your choice [emoji4]

I think that a figure say a million can buy a lot of boat when it comes to sail, but not a lot when it comes to motor boat.

You can buy or build an offshore trawler under $650k with a range under 3000 miles, most probably not a lot more than 2000 miles optimistically.
Offshore capable yes, ocean crossing not really.
I think the cutoff point is 3000 miles for motor cruisers, motor boats that can do 3000 miles probably cost more than 1 million, and 5000 miles would cost more than 2-3 million, even for the Dashew FPB.
I think the Harjamaa LRC was build a bit more than $600k, but no generator, air conditioner, no stabilizer at the rolling high sea, only a state room...

But for sailing boat or cat (I admit I am not to familiar with them), $650k can buy you a lot of boat to cross ocean and go anywhere with.

Say what can $750k to $850k can buy you these days?

[Wckoek]

Originally Posted by Stumble

For a boat this size you really need to also include the cost of sails. A high efficiency motor yacht can very easily wind up cheaper to move than a sailboat. The cost of sails in the >65' range can be substantial, and their lifespan isn't all that long.

For a 70' monohull I would guess a 3di main is going to run around $100,000. $250k in sails would not be unexpected.

Agree, but a larger motor yacht also cost a lot more upfront, like a million or two more. So $100k to 250k sails is still cheaper than the multimillion motor yacht, I guess an FPB would cost more than 2-3 million.

Under 40 feet or 20 tonnes, a simple, efficient coastal/offshore capable displacement motor boat would be cheaper to run than sailboats.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Wckoek

Say what can $750k to $850k can buy you these days?

Have a look on Yachtworld.com (and similar sites), filter for vessels between $800K and $1M... and assume purchase price for some of those can be negotiated.

-Chris

[Wckoek]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

Have a look on Yachtworld.com (and similar sites), filter for vessels between $800K and $1M... and assume purchase price for some of those can be negotiated.

-Chris

I have actually did that when I am free 2 weeks ago but 600-800k and from hundreds of pages of listing, 99% of them are planing sun seeker, etc, there are a few liveaboard trawlers, Bruce Roberts trawlers, Diesel Ducks, Nordhaven, nothing much that can do more than 2-3000 miles in range offshore.

There are actually brokerage which deals with these kind of long range expedition boat. Yacht Brokerage | Expedition Yacht Sales | Buy Explorer Yachts
I came into conclusion that true ocean crossing motor yacht has to be custom or semi-custom build and do not regularly come under 1 million.

http://www.boatpoint.com.au/boats-fo...Passage-Maker/
This one is within my price range, but doesn't really have the range I am looking for.

But there are a lot of sailboat or even motor sailor that can have much more range for much less price, sails are expensive for sure, but not so much compared to large generator, 3000 gallons fuel tank and system, stabilizers etc.

Maybe a displacement cat can be build with less complexity and cost, I haven't seen much of them build and the only production ones say Sunreef cost millions.

I don't know if it's true, but I believe that if you go under 40 feet and do coastal only, motor can be cheaper than sail, if you want to go larger than say 50 feet and ocean crossing or circumnavigation, sailing is much cheaper to go even with the current depressed fuel price or maintainence cost, the up front cost for a long range motor cruiser is too high.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Wckoek

I have actually did that when I am free 2 weeks ago but 600-800k and from hundreds of pages of listing, 99% of them are planing sun seeker, etc, there are a few liveaboard trawlers, Bruce Roberts trawlers, Diesel Ducks, Nordhaven, nothing much that can do more than 2-3000 miles in range offshore.

Yes, lots to wade through... but should be fewer if you up the price range to between $800K-$1M.

And then maybe you can add some brand and keyword filters. Expedition, etc. Maybe on range, if that's a searchable field or keyword.

Mostly the first pass (or several passes) through that way might just be a way to find brands/boats worth additional pinpoint searching.

-Chris

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Scout 30

Back in the 20's boats like our Scout 30 were called raised deck motor cruisers. That works for me but when I tell people that I just get a perplexed look so we too just call our boat a trawler.

I can recall one called the Iron Horse. Elco and probably Richardsen build them and probably others. A good way to gain width instead of just a trunk cabin.

[Cheechako]

One of the most efficient is a traditional Lobsterboat. Long and narrow swinging a huge prop at very low rpm. I sailed in Mexico in the 80's with an HP Physicist. He sold his sailboat after that and bought one. IIRC it swung a 3 ft diameter prop at like 200 rpm.

[Scout 30]

Originally Posted by Cadence

I can recall one called the Iron Horse. Elco and probably Richardsen build them and probably others. A good way to gain width instead of just a trunk cabin.

Very similar to the Lake Union Dreamboats of the 20's. Here's one that's just been listed on Yachtworld for anyone interested. Full displacement hull with 2,000 lbs of ballast but I'm not sure if it's a trawler. Fun to cruise around in though.

1980 Scout 30 Hardtop Cruiser- Complete Custom Rebuild Power Boat For Sale

[Cheechako]

I loved this little "trawler", although interior was a bit sparse. Designed a lot like the SF Bay Sardine boats/ Monterey Clippers. Unfortunately it was too expensive to ship from Fl to the PNW and I let 'er go.

[TrentePieds]

Quote: "IIRC it swung a 3 ft diameter prop at like 200 rpm."

Yes, the beauty of the semi-diesels aka "hot bulb" single-lung engines! On a nominal 30 HP engine max was about 380 RPM. They ran equally well in either direction and would burn the slops from your frying pan. The could therefore swing a VERY efficient propeller. We, these days, use intrinsically inefficient propellers because we are for reasons of cost reduced to high speed , say 3,800 RPM, engines that we then gear down in order to minimize the resultant prop inefficiency as much as we can.

WcKoek appears to be a Dutchman. He should know all about semi-diesels and traditional tugs and trawlers which is where this thread started. The gyrations along the way have been puzzling but amusing :-)!

TP.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Quote: "IIRC it swung a 3 ft diameter prop at like 200 rpm."

Yes, the beauty of the semi-diesels aka "hot bulb" single-lung engines! On a nominal 30 HP engine max was about 380 RPM. They ran equally well in either direction and would burn the slops from your frying pan. The could therefore swing a VERY efficient propeller. We, these days, use intrinsically inefficient propellers because we are for reasons of cost reduced to high speed , say 3,800 RPM, engines that we then gear down in order to minimize the resultant prop inefficiency as much as we can.

WcKoek appears to be a Dutchman. He should know all about semi-diesels and traditional tugs and trawlers which is where this thread started. The gyrations along the way have been puzzling but amusing :-)!

TP.

I would think that combination would be very noisy and induce a fair bit of vibration?