Wanted to Buy-Live aboard Boat with diesels.

[PerfectSeas]

Hello All. I am new to this forum. I am looking to buy a live aboard. I looked at a 1991 3607 Carver Aft Cabin and love the layout. Unfortunately, it was sold out from under us. So here's what I'm looking for. At least 36'. Diesel engines. Prefer walk around bed. I like the hard top. Good full encloseure on bridge and Aft deck. Good mechanicals and structure. It doesn't have to be a Carver. Sea Ray, Silvertons seem similar. I love the idea of a trawler. Like the looks from the outside. I haven't found too may where the inside layout is what I'm looking for. I don't mind a little wood, but prefer not all wood. Also, I don't want to go much earlier than 1990, due to finding parts, not being a mechanic, etc. Oh, and I am looking to stay under $60,00 USD. I know I'm looking for a miracle, but maybe someone knows of something. Thanks so much.

[ranger58sb]

Using that aft cabin Carver as an example, search yachtworld.com for motor yacht" (or aft cabin motor yachts), trawlers, and long range cruisers, between 36-43'. Some of the returns that are larger and/or newer might exceed you initial budget, but you can at least use that to get an idea of the market.

Some other motor yacht brand names are Formula, Cruisers, Bayliner, Meridian... "trawlers" could be Grand Banks, Marine Trader... LRCs could be Hatteras...

-Chris

[30West]

I just went through a similar search, ended up focusing on Cruisers Yachts 3650/3750/375. There were some in your price range that needed a little work. They had better lines and construction/fit/finish/quality than Carver, for the same price. The further north I went, the more aft-cabin 40' cruisers I saw, tons of them up in Georgian Bay and well preserved.

Mainship also made a more trawler-looking aft-cabin. Most of the "trawer" boats in this size and price are just cosmetic with more wood work, not really deep-keel working boats. They have a sharper bow to take waves better, but lose some interior space at the bow for it.

Why diesel, are you a diesel mechanic? If not, be ready for some breath-taking prices on doing a regular tuneup, and your entire budget if you need a new engine. I plan on taking a lot of short trips and a few long trips every summer, and my entire fuel budget with twin gas 8.1s won't match the cost to have a pair of diesels properly maintained/serviced.

If you must have diesels, pay a real factory-trained mechanic to look them over. Get the factory performance numbers for that boat with those engines, and make sure the engines are still putting out their rated power. I found a lot of boats this size have diesels that aren't quite big enough, tend to get pushed hard and wear out. The most common complaint seems to be wishing they had bought the bigger diesels. If top speed isn't well above efficient planing cruising speed, it may have spent a lot of time at full-throttle, not good for diesels.

[Chuck34]

Originally Posted by PerfectSeas

Hello All. I am new to this forum. I am looking to buy a live aboard. I looked at a 1991 3607 Carver Aft Cabin and love the layout. Unfortunately, it was sold out from under us. So here's what I'm looking for. At least 36'. Diesel engines. Prefer walk around bed. I like the hard top. Good full encloseure on bridge and Aft deck. Good mechanicals and structure. It doesn't have to be a Carver. Sea Ray, Silvertons seem similar. I love the idea of a trawler. Like the looks from the outside. I haven't found too may where the inside layout is what I'm looking for. I don't mind a little wood, but prefer not all wood. Also, I don't want to go much earlier than 1990, due to finding parts, not being a mechanic, etc. Oh, and I am looking to stay under $60,00 USD. I know I'm looking for a miracle, but maybe someone knows of something. Thanks so much.

I used to have a Carver 3807 (bigger brother to the 3607). Great layout, very roomy and comfortable. Compared to your typical trawler, Grand Banks, Marine Trader, Albin, etc. tons more interior space and comfort with the Carver. When we had our Carver, we had friends with a 41' trawler and our boat was much roomier than their trawler.
We had twin Merc 7.4's. Great engines and if you run at hull speed, 7-8 knots, reasonably economical.
Unless you are planning on putting tons of hours on the engines, I would go gas.

[a64pilot]

Gas motors are great for a Marina Queen,
We had a 36' Sport fisherman with twin Merc 454's, however the amount of fuel you will burn and the price for fuel if you are really doing much cruising will break the bank.

Current fuel price in my Home Marina, notice gas is $1.10 per gallon higher, that is common, so you burn more fuel and pay more per gallon

Current Fuel Prices - Panama City Marina

[Shrew]

The concern with gas engines in a boat of that vintage is, if it hasn't been done already......you will eventually be dealing with a repower. Gas big blocks (i.e. 454, 495, 502) will not be cheap, but it will be cheaper than diesel.

With diesel you will definitely pay up front and maintenace and repowering diesel (typically much less frequent than gas) will be very expensive.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Marine Trader "Sundeck" model is what I think will make a good fit.

I particularly like the Sundeck models because that extra living space looks very appealing to me. I have looked at many online and this one linked below is in good condition compared to most.

Here is just one (36 footer) that has been listed for over a year.
1986 Marine Trader 36 Sundeck Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

They come in different sizes, as I recall 36, 38, and 40. All about the same in styling and finish. Some with single Diesel and some with twins. Whether to get a twin or single is another issue with opinions divided on which is best.

IF you are inclined to trawlers, also join this site's sister site trawlerforum.com and read there.

Good luck on your boat search and Bon Voyage!

[30West]

Originally Posted by Shrew

The concern with gas engines in a boat of that vintage is, if it hasn't been done already......you will eventually be dealing with a repower. Gas big blocks (i.e. 454, 495, 502) will not be cheap, but it will be cheaper than diesel.

With diesel you will definitely pay up front and maintenace and repowering diesel (typically much less frequent than gas) will be very expensive.

Unfortunately, that size and age boat will probably be close to repower if it has diesels. Diesel longevity on boats seems to have gone down quite a bit as they've gotten much more precise, efficient, and powerful with multiple turbos and intercoolers/aftercoolers. They might also be failing because they are getting more common on smaller pleasure boats, with owners who aren't as well educated on proper care and feeding of diesels. Another problem is changes in diesel fuel due to environmental concerns.

Gas engines have gotten much more reliable, powerful, and long-lasting, while remaining much cheaper to buy and maintain. The fully computerized and injected engines running coolant, are a huge leap forward in performance and longevity from the old carbureted engines.

If you are going to be travelling long distances often, diesel would be my choice. I not, you have to look carefully at costs and benefits of diesel, how much fuel you will burn, etc.

[Chuck34]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Gas motors are great for a Marina Queen,
We had a 36' Sport fisherman with twin Merc 454's, however the amount of fuel you will burn and the price for fuel if you are really doing much cruising will break the bank.

Current fuel price in my Home Marina, notice gas is $1.10 per gallon higher, that is common, so you burn more fuel and pay more per gallon

Current Fuel Prices - Panama City Marina

First of all, the OP likes the idea of a trawler, so that tells me that the speed of the boat is not an issue, so something in the 36-40 range with gassers won't break the bank if run at hull speed. That's what I did for years with my Carver.
As I said above, unless you are putting lots of hours on the engines, the big premium you have to pay to get diesels, just can't be justified.
Not sure why, but at our marina, the price difference between gas and diesel is very small. Here in VA, you can even get a tax refund on the state gasoline tax on all gas used in boats.

[30West]

My big-block gasser is about as inefficient as a cruising boat comes. I burn about 8gph at 8 knots. A diesel displacement hull cruiser might burn half the fuel if it is really efficient.

I'm hearing $10,000 for diesel service including valves, aftercooler, turbo vanes, injectors, everything.

You would have to save about $10,000 in fuel to justify the diesels. That would take 8 hours of cruising every day for two years, to save enough on fuel to pay for the increased service cost.

I'd rather have big Chevy engines anyone, including me, can work on. Boating is expensive, diesels don't make it suddenly inexpensive. They do make boating more complicated.

[a64pilot]

Diesels, especially Trawler sized ones like the Cummins inline 6 cyl are as dead simple as a lawnmower, really.
Those gas motors, I know I had two of them will require constant attention with spark plugs, wires, distributors and especially the carburetors.
If you can't do routine maintenance on a simple Diesel then you can't on a gas motor either.
There is nothing complex or expensive about a simple mechanically injected Diesel engine.
Now if you are talking about the big V12 1000+ HP motors, then you may be correct, but a Cummins inline 6 is really a Dodge pickup truck motor. I love them, smooth and will run forever.

I do not know where $10K comes from, day I expect to overhaul my little toy Diesel I don't expect to spend that, I don't think I spent that overhauling my aircraft IO-540

[30West]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Diesels, especially Trawler sized ones like the Cummins inline 6 cyl are as dead simple as a lawnmower, really.
Those gas motors, I know I had two of them will require constant attention with spark plugs, wires, distributors and especially the carburetors.
If you can't do routine maintenance on a simple Diesel then you can't on a gas motor either.
There is nothing complex or expensive about a simple mechanically injected Diesel engine.
Now if you are talking about the big V12 1000+ HP motors, then you may be correct, but a Cummins inline 6 is really a Dodge pickup truck motor. I love them, smooth and will run forever.

Hmm, good point carbed gasser vs mechanical injected diesel. At this price it would be an older boat, and old diesels were looser, stinkier, and lasted forever. The newer high-output, low-emissions diesels have given up their simplicity and sloppy tolerances, and are much more finicky, while newer gas engines have gotten much less finicky. I'm spoiled that I found something fairly modern in my price range.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by 30West

Unfortunately, that size and age boat will probably be close to repower if it has diesels.

Nah, not so much. Many boats of that era would have either two-stroke Detroits -- run forever, rebuild if necessary, run another forever, repeat as necessary -- or 4-stroke Cats, Cummins, Volvos etc. and all of those latter would most likely still be in service for another 10-20 years befer even thinking about a rebuild, assuming proper maintenance and not abused. Especially for diesels only run 100-150 hours/year, not an uncommon figure estimated for recreational boat usage. And then there are the almost-dock-queens...

Originally Posted by 30West

I'm hearing $10,000 for diesel service including valves, aftercooler, turbo vanes, injectors, everything.

Maybe if they're MANs... but otherwise...

I had almost all that (not injectors) done by our local Cummins tech when we bought our boat, directly after Cummins themselves did our pre-purchase survey. It was about $3.5K total, i.e., for both engines. Injectors don't need much, unless they crap out, so it's not usually part of routine service.

Now that I've learned how, I can do almost all that myself; none of it's especially rocket science.

And then valves, aftercooler and coolant service doesn't happen every year anyway. Mostly routine service includes oil/filter changes, fuel filter service (one gets changed, the other element... maybe or not), water pump">raw water pump impeller changes, and anode replacement as necessary. The actual work is relatively easy, unless access issues get in the way.,

That's on mechanical diesels, though, so boats after about 2005-ish would be more likely to be common rail I think... and I don't know so much about what that might add.

Originally Posted by 30West

At this price it would be an older boat, and old diesels were looser, stinkier, and lasted forever. The newer high-output, low-emissions diesels have given up their simplicity and sloppy tolerances, and are much more finicky...

"Looser and stinkier" would be those 2-stroke Detroits... and current new diesels would be more complicated... but there's an intermediate range in there (all the Cat, Cummins, Volvo, Yanmar, etc.) 4-stroke mechanical models that will probably last only 2-3 years short of forever, given proper maintanance, etc.

FWIW, many members in our owners club have diesels... and we almost never hear much about anything but normal, routine service.

I do know of three local boats with diesel malfunctions over the last 10 years or so; one of those was likely from inattention to service details, another was likely because the guy ran it at WOT all the time. Dunno about the third...

-Chris