ASA vs RYA

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Uricanejack

True,
I know MM’s I would not trust to organize a tot of rum in a kayak. And and old fisherman or sailor I would trust with anything.

I also know people with relatively little practical experience or knowledge, who simply are willing to listen and keen to learn. I will trust to a level you might find very surprising. I look for good judgment and particularly the willingness to ask for help.
There are some people you trust and some you don’t.

I sail with a lot of volunteer crew, and often take "mile builders" with me on my usual biannual migration between Finland and Cowes. There are two kinds of sailors who are best to sail with -- very experienced people who have or have had their own boats, on the one hand, and beginners who haven't had any courses yet but who are keen to learn, on the other hand. The worst are the ones who have finished or nearly finished the "zero to hero" yachtmaster courses -- they are full of theoretical knowledge, much of it misunderstood, lack understanding of important basic things, and have difficulty processing what you try to teach them.

I'm not saying at all that the courses are useless -- no. Actually I think formal training in safety, navigation, and pilotage is really important and useful. It's just that it's an awkward phase of development, having been to courses but not have been in charge of your own boat for enough years to start to fill in the gaps.

I once left one brand new Yachtmaster Ocean on night watch sailing up the English Channel towards the Dover Straits on passage towards Helgoland, and went to bed. I woke up a couple of hours later with that sixth sense that something wasn't right, came up on deck, and found him sitting in the cockpit facing aft and looking at the stars. The pilot was on wind mode, and with a wind veer, had steered us right towards the Dover TSS, up which we would have been going in the wrong direction if we had carried on for another 15 minutes. He hadn't looked at the plotter once, and he had turned off the AIS alarms and radar guard zones because of all the traffic, not to disturb his star-gazing. Thank God the wind shift wasn't the other way, putting us onto the beach.

The whole voyage I couldn't get him to keep a proper watch, and eventually took him out of the watch rotation

Never had that problem with a beginner. I can teach a rank beginner how to keep an excellent watch in 30 minutes, or less.

[Uricanejack]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I sail with a lot of volunteer crew, and often take "mile builders" with me on my usual biannual migration between Finland and Cowes. There are two kinds of sailors who are best to sail with -- very experienced people who have or have had their own boats, on the one hand, and beginners who haven't had any courses yet but who are keen to learn, on the other hand. The worst are the ones who have finished or nearly finished the "zero to hero" yachtmaster courses -- they are full of theoretical knowledge, much of it misunderstood, lack understanding of important basic things, and have difficulty processing what you try to teach them.

I'm not saying at all that the courses are useless -- no. Actually I think formal training in safety, navigation, and pilotage is really important and useful. It's just that it's an awkward phase of development, having been to courses but not have been in charge of your own boat for enough years to start to fill in the gaps.

I once left one brand new Yachtmaster Ocean on night watch sailing up the English Channel towards the Dover Straits on passage towards Helgoland, and went to bed. I woke up a couple of hours later with that sixth sense that something wasn't right, came up on deck, and found him sitting in the cockpit facing aft and looking at the stars. The pilot was on wind mode, and with a wind veer, had steered us right towards the Dover TSS, up which we would have been going in the wrong direction if we had carried on for another 15 minutes. He hadn't looked at the plotter once, and he had turned off the AIS alarms and radar guard zones because of all the traffic, not to disturb his star-gazing. Thank God the wind shift wasn't the other way, putting us onto the beach.

The whole voyage I couldn't get him to keep a proper watch, and eventually took him out of the watch rotation

Never had that problem with a beginner. I can teach a rank beginner how to keep an excellent watch in 30 minutes, or less.

I learned to sail backwards, I can to it accidentally, I saw a sail training vessel in to its berth, I thought it was interesting and wandered over to kick the tires. I ended up chatting to the Skipper. Asking how to get a shot at sailing on her.
He gave me the info, and asked if I was interested in booking a trip as one of the crew.
I was but unfortunately could not afford it since I had recently been laid off and was out off work. It was the early 80s UK so not unusual. He asked what I had been working as, 3rd Mate on a tanker.
He offered me a job. As Bosun unpaid voluntary community service of some kind, basically I got my unemployment benefits without being bugged about looking for work.
So I went sailing, didn’t have a clue, about sailing.
Turned out to be the most enjoyable job I ever had.

He was a Yachtmaster. He knew his stuff, we got on great, I might not have had a clue but, I was the guy he trusted when he needed to get his head down.
Back in those days it was the old Yachtmaster, The a night class and writen exam, truthfully I dint know what was required. I never did one.
The other Skippers I sailed with were also YMs different backgrounds some ex navy. But I respected there abilities and knowledge.

I found a lot of the volentere Mates all YMs varied greatly. Most were quite a lot older than me, I was roughly the same age or younger than the trainees. So they were quite surprised I knew what I was talking about and the skipper delegate to me.

Most were enthusiastic but had a hard time translating the theory into practice. The actual level of knowledge required was quite impressive,
They could have probably passed a 2nd Mate fgn chartwork paper.

But would have difficulty relating it to what they could see.

It was a weird dynamic. But I found most were trying to keep a watch well they just lacked practical experience. Once they realized I was worth listening to, I would help them out.

And I learned how to sail. To this day I’ve never sailed a dingy. Or anything which might tip over.
My sailing ability could easily be described as lacking practical experience.

I left the Uk prior to the introduction of the current YM so I don’t have any first hand knowledge of the current YM. I get the impression it was changed to address the lack of practical experience.
How well this works I don’t know, the mileage requirement are very different from how seatime I am familiar with is accrued.

I did sail at one time with a rather eccentric chief officer. He was an ex Sandhurst. Lad who left the army and found a berth as a 3rd mate back in the early 70s with his Yachtmaster certificate.

He was quite a legend at the time. I also knew the master he first sailed with. When he was just learning. By the time I sailed with him he was an MM. Quite Gentleman and quite an achievement.

It never occurred to me to ask how he got his YM. I just assumed his family must of had a yacht, he probably went sailing when he was in the army.

[DMF Sailing]

Uricanejack;3365966 ]It’s called experience. ...
Regardless of the course. 40 some years and I am still learning, or making mistakes. ...

Yeah, Jack. I've been sailing and docking boats for 50 years. Probably more experience sailing than a lot of people reading this. Probably made more mistakes, too.

The experience I'm looking for, and why I'm reading what people say on this forum, is cruises longer than 100 nm, when I have my own boat again, and maintenance and all the other tricks of owning that boat.

There is no way you will learn all there is to know about docking on a week long course. Even if you spent the entire time docking.

Agreed, however, in my case, I had to take the ASA 103, 104, and 106 courses (and pass them easily) not as a newbie, but to qualify to sail their boats.

And then they put me through the steps to dock their boats the way they wanted them docked. That particular instructor wanted me to do it his way. It had to do with the speed of backing in and the moment when you start your turn, because of the tight space and the gusty winds we get. I saw his point, and now I back in like a madman (from my point of view), go into forward, tight turn using the propwash. Me, with my own boat, maybe I won't do that, because of wear and tear on the transmission. We'll see. Maybe I'll start a "how do you back in?" thread.

It’s good to learn from several different sources, and pick what you like as your favourite book of tricks.

Agreed. As you say, it's good to learn from several sources. I like it when qualified people point out flaws.

That's why I think a refresher would be a good idea. Despite my qualifications, there are always holes that can be patched. And I've never used a lead line. That's in the day skipper class. I would also like to brush up my navigating theory. I've sailed with only a sexton and a paper chart. That's in ASA 108. But that was years ago, and in no way would I consider a celestial navigation course a waste of time ;-)

[bensolomon]

Beautiful picture of your log book and sextant.

[muttnik]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The worst are the ones who have finished or nearly finished the "zero to hero" yachtmaster courses -- they are full of theoretical knowledge, much of it misunderstood, lack understanding of important basic things, and have difficulty processing what you try to teach them.

What's your sample size and, out of curiosity, what kind of demographic? Coming from a non-sailing background I did a zero-to-hero course in my 30s (followed by delivery crewing, charting then boat ownership). I'm not a naturally confident person, have always been acutely aware of my responsibilities as a watch leader and later skipper and my theoretical knowledge at the end of the course was not too shabby and certainly extended to knowledge of rule 5 which in your crewmate it seems that it didn't.

I'm wondering if you're talking about the entitled youngsters whose rich parents pay for their fast track courses prior to a brief career in superyachts before segueing into the family business.

The attitude you're talking about is not taught on such courses but may instead be an issue with some of the people who take them

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by muttnik

What's your sample size and, out of curiosity, what kind of demographic? Coming from a non-sailing background I did a zero-to-hero course in my 30s (followed by delivery crewing, charting then boat ownership). I'm not a naturally confident person, have always been acutely aware of my responsibilities as a watch leader and later skipper and my theoretical knowledge at the end of the course was not too shabby and certainly extended to knowledge of rule 5 which in your crewmate it seems that it didn't.

I'm wondering if you're talking about the entitled youngsters whose rich parents pay for their fast track courses prior to a brief career in superyachts before segueing into the family business.

The attitude you're talking about is not taught on such courses but may instead be an issue with some of the people who take them

Look, I'm all in favor of theoretical knowledge. I wish more of us had a solid grasp of navigation, pilotage, radar plotting, safety, and collision avoidance. The yachting world would be a much better place.


No, I don't think the folks I have in mind are "entitled". I think it just goes with the territory -- it's an awkward phase. Some people are smart enough to realize that despite the mass of theoretical knowledge, there is still a lot fo know. I presume you are one of those. Aristotle said that the wise man is the one who knows what he doesn't know. That kind of wisdom is, unfortunately, rare.

[Uricanejack]

Originally Posted by DMF Sailing

Uricanejack;3365966 ]It’s called experience. ...
Regardless of the course. 40 some years and I am still learning, or making mistakes. ...

Yeah, Jack. I've been sailing and docking boats for 50 years. Probably more experience sailing than a lot of people reading this. Probably made more mistakes, too.

The experience I'm looking for, and why I'm reading what people say on this forum, is cruises longer than 100 nm, when I have my own boat again, and maintenance and all the other tricks of owning that boat.

There is no way you will learn all there is to know about docking on a week long course. Even if you spent the entire time docking.

Agreed, however, in my case, I had to take the ASA 103, 104, and 106 courses (and pass them easily) not as a newbie, but to qualify to sail their boats.

And then they put me through the steps to dock their boats the way they wanted them docked. That particular instructor wanted me to do it his way. It had to do with the speed of backing in and the moment when you start your turn, because of the tight space and the gusty winds we get. I saw his point, and now I back in like a madman (from my point of view), go into forward, tight turn using the propwash. Me, with my own boat, maybe I won't do that, because of wear and tear on the transmission. We'll see. Maybe I'll start a "how do you back in?" thread.

It’s good to learn from several different sources, and pick what you like as your favourite book of tricks.

Agreed. As you say, it's good to learn from several sources. I like it when qualified people point out flaws.

That's why I think a refresher would be a good idea. Despite my qualifications, there are always holes that can be patched. And I've never used a lead line. That's in the day skipper class. I would also like to brush up my navigating theory. I've sailed with only a sexton and a paper chart. That's in ASA 108. But that was years ago, and in no way would I consider a celestial navigation course a waste of time ;-)

It’s not a need to do, it’s more of an interested in doing, will it be fun? will it be worth while? It will be if it’s fun. Enjoy. If your interested do it.
Which level to pitch at? Up to you.

When you meet the examiner, if he asks about arming the lead or the benefit. ask him what the mark for 26 fathoms is?

[DMF Sailing]

Originally Posted by Uricanejack

It’s not a need to do, it’s more of an interested in doing, will it be fun? will it be worth while? It will be if it’s fun. Enjoy. If your interested do it.
Which level to pitch at? Up to you.

When you meet the examiner, if he asks about arming the lead or the benefit. ask him what the mark for 26 fathoms is?

Thanks. I'll do that. Hopefully it will result in something uproarious like me getting thrown overboard.

The only lead line lore I'm familiar with is By the mark, twain

[LittleWing77]

Originally Posted by Uricanejack

When you meet the examiner, if he asks about arming the lead or the benefit, ask him what the mark for 26 fathoms is?

26 fathoms, Uricane?!?

Why, that's "Davy Jones' Locker".

LittleWing77

[muttnik]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

No, I don't think the folks I have in mind are "entitled". I think it just goes with the territory -- it's an awkward phase. Some people are smart enough to realize that despite the mass of theoretical knowledge, there is still a lot fo know. I presume you are one of those. Aristotle said that the wise man is the one who knows what he doesn't know. That kind of wisdom is, unfortunately, rare.

I believe you're referring to the "mount of stupidity", but the Dunning-Kruger effect is cultural and notable particularly in cultures prone to individual exceptionalism. Cultures differ within some nations as much between them.

If your watchkeeper had recently passed their yachtmaster my guess would be that their failure to pay attention was due carelessness stemming from over-confidence rather than lack of knowledge: Keeping an eye on course and position so you don't wander into a TSS isn't something you pick up with years of experience it's basic nav which would be taught and examined on one of these courses. Self-confidence is a personality trait which as I'm sure anyone who has recruited internationally knows, is culturally associated. I don't think I need to be classified as a class warrior to suggest that as a general rule (and therefore with exceptions) the offspring of the successful and affluent who have gone through the British private school system and into a £20k yachting course are more likely to have a surplus of innate confidence than someone middle aged who's had their fair share of setbacks and decided to blow their life savings on a course to change their life.

The point I'm trying to make is that I would regard the fault you described as lying with the person rather than the the course they did. These courses do tend to attract a disproportionate number of students from a certain demographic which might be why you've seen similar behaviour in more than one person. Certainly I suffered from imposter syndrome during my first decade in yachting.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by muttnik

I believe you're referring to the "mount of stupidity", but the Dunning-Kruger effect is cultural and notable particularly in cultures prone to individual exceptionalism. Cultures differ within some nations as much between them.

If your watchkeeper had recently passed their yachtmaster my guess would be that their failure to pay attention was due carelessness stemming from over-confidence rather than lack of knowledge: Keeping an eye on course and position so you don't wander into a TSS isn't something you pick up with years of experience it's basic nav which would be taught and examined on one of these courses. Self-confidence is a personality trait which as I'm sure anyone who has recruited internationally knows, is culturally associated. I don't think I need to be classified as a class warrior to suggest that as a general rule (and therefore with exceptions) the offspring of the successful and affluent who have gone through the British private school system and into a £20k yachting course are more likely to have a surplus of innate confidence than someone middle aged who's had their fair share of setbacks and decided to blow their life savings on a course to change their life.

The point I'm trying to make is that I would regard the fault you described as lying with the person rather than the the course they did. These courses do tend to attract a disproportionate number of students from a certain demographic which might be why you've seen similar behaviour in more than one person. Certainly I suffered from imposter syndrome during my first decade in yachting.

Yes, certainly, I'm not blaming the courses, which I think are very useful. We all know experienced yachtsmen who don't know how to navigate, and don't know even basic things about collision avoidance or radio procedure. I'm all in favor of "book learning" -- you need a lot of knowledge to run an oceangoing yacht properly.

But your suspicions about the "demographic" can't be confirmed by my experience at least. The guy in question was not even a UK citizen, much less a public school guy.

There is an awkward stage of the development of pilots, half way between being a beginner and being seasoned, where most fatal accidents occur. I think it's more like this.

There are different kinds of self-confidence. The good kind comes from knowing that you have thought everything through, have thought through over and over again all the things which can go wrong, and have really well prepared yourself. This is combined with knowledge that effort and attention are required in any case, and that things can go wrong, but that you will be ready to deal with it because you worked your ass off getting prepared. The bad kind of self-confidence is lazy ignorance about the nature of the challenge. These are very different things.

The bad kind of self-confidence can be exacerbated in newly-minted Yachtmasters by an exaggerated idea of what the qualification means. Like a law degree -- a Yachtmaster qualification is the BEGINNING, not the end of the road of learning. You might have started at zero, but you're not a hero yet.

[Spot]

Originally Posted by Uricanejack

It’s not a need to do, it’s more of an interested in doing, will it be fun? will it be worth while? It will be if it’s fun. Enjoy. If your interested do it.
Which level to pitch at? Up to you.

When you meet the examiner, if he asks about arming the lead or the benefit. ask him what the mark for 26 fathoms is?

Nice one 'Jack. You made me go look:
Sounding Line
No benefit, by the deep and overboard for a 25 fathom line...

[muttnik]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

There are different kinds of self-confidence. The good kind comes from knowing that you have thought everything through, have thought through over and over again all the things which can go wrong, and have really well prepared yourself. This is combined with knowledge that effort and attention are required in any case, and that things can go wrong, but that you will be ready to deal with it because you worked your ass off getting prepared. The bad kind of self-confidence is lazy ignorance about the nature of the challenge. These are very different things.

I was referring to innate self-confidence, the tendency some people have to believe that they will be uncommonly successful in any arbitrary endeavour, which is orthogonal to confidence in a particular task based on a (possibly flawed) evaluation of ones capabilities. It's the alpha-male thing. The kinds of confidence you describe above are both ones I would associate with innately self-confident people, the difference is experience and would result in precisely what you have observed.

By contrast, those of us who lack that innate self confidence have a different, almost opposite journey. It starts with the grossly exaggerated fear that all the things you know can go wrong (ie the hazards you've been taught about) will go wrong in the worst possible way, topped with worry about the "unknown unknowns" and meticulous and over-zealous triple checking. As in the former case, experience leads to a more realistic view of risk but the transition in risk perception is the opposite way round: repeatedly demonstrating to yourself your ability to deal successfully with situations which arise slowly changes paranoia into "sensible caution".

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by muttnik

I was referring to innate self-confidence, the tendency some people have to believe that they will be uncommonly successful in any arbitrary endeavour, which is orthogonal to confidence in a particular task based on a (possibly flawed) evaluation of ones capabilities. It's the alpha-male thing. The kinds of confidence you describe above are both ones I would associate with innately self-confident people, the difference is experience and would result in precisely what you have observed.

By contrast, those of us who lack that innate self confidence have a different, almost opposite journey. It starts with the grossly exaggerated fear that all the things you know can go wrong (ie the hazards you've been taught about) will go wrong in the worst possible way, topped with worry about the "unknown unknowns" and meticulous and over-zealous triple checking. As in the former case, experience leads to a more realistic view of risk but the transition in risk perception is the opposite way round: repeatedly demonstrating to yourself your ability to deal successfully with situations which arise slowly changes paranoia into "sensible caution".

Interesting philosophical question, actually highly relevant to question of how one becomes a good seaman.

I'm not sure, however, that I agree with the "directionality" of getting to confidence from "innately self confident", on the one hand, and "not innately self confidence", on the other. Thinking you can probably do it yet being acutely aware of the many ways it can go wrong coexists in a healthy way. Being acutely aware of the many ways it can go wrong, even to the point of fear, is not "paranoia". Not all fear is irrational.

I experienced plenty of fear during my year of preparation to sail to the Arctic the first time. Thinking through the enormously long list of things which could go wrong, with fatal results. There were some sleepless nights even. I prepared fanatically, spent tens of thousands of pounds, worked on the boat for months, even had a structural survey done on her, learned compulsively about dealing with ice, icebergs, polar bears, uncharted waters, etc. etc. etc. etc. What if an iceberg drifts over your anchor? What if you're on land and a polar bear shreds your dinghy? What if you get stuck in the ice? What if you run out of fresh water? What if the generator fails? What if we get into a serious storm? What if there is a storm and the anchor drags -- and going back out to sea means going out into the sea ice? Was I "confident" when I shoved off from Cowes, headed North and North? Not really. I knew there were still a huge amount of unknowns and that I was taking significant risks (and Pantaenius refused to insure me at any price, so I was risking my boat too). But I felt good enough to go, and we did go, and in the event nothing broke on the boat worse than a clogged toilet, and nothing went wrong, even though we did encounter a polar bear and we did get into heavy sea ice, and we did sail through a heavy gale, and we did actually have an iceberg drift over the anchor, and we did ride out a gale at anchor, anchored in almost 50m of water on 2:1 scope, when dragging would have meant going out to sea and being smashed into splinters by sea ice. I wouldn't necessarily say that I got to that place (of being ready to go), from a place of "innate self confidence". It felt more like "paranoia" to me, with plenty of doubt, which I used to motivate myself to leave no stone unturned in preparation, that I could practically turn. And in the event, of course, we were also just dumb lucky, in addition to being fairly well prepared -- it could have gone the other way*.

So I'm not sure there is such a clear dichotomy between "innately self confident" and "not innately self confident" people. I think we all have all those different things in us, including fear. The main thing is not to be lazy. Or arrogant.

* Amundsen said "I may say that this is the greatest factor — the way in which the expedition is equipped — the way in which every difficulty is foreseen, and precautions taken for meeting or avoiding it. Victory awaits him who has everything in order — luck, people call it. Defeat is certain for him who has neglected to take the necessary precautions in time; this is called bad luck." But this is bravado. As if he were not lucky on top of being well prepared. And of course in the end, Amundsen's luck did run out, and he died with his boots on -- despite his preparations.

[Pelagic]

I call it:
Being a professional pessimist

In essence, using Murphy's Law to observe, then become proactive in teaching prevention of what disaster scenario your imagination sees.

Often it is just houskeeping

But that mindset takes on all forms from creating dynamic emergency drill scenarios to having a habit of suprising the bridge watch at the worst hours to see if they are alert and keeping a proper lookout.

You can only lead by example, so I try to do that, but also understand that some crew under me don't have the same fear of failure and ultimate responsability.

Those imortal ones, you guide along with a watchful eye