Interesting read from one of our fellow female sailors.....

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by BlueSlue

Oh my goodness, thank you so much for explaining that to me. I must have missed the day in business school when they explained that images of females and colored people have negative ROI. Now I realize how uppity it was of me to think that any female or colored person could potentially be a customer or that a market could be expanded.

As a business owner you dont create a market you find one and cater to it. You fond a solution for a need hard and expensive to create the need. Never mentioned negative ROI, was talking about getting using marketing money most effectively.

Was there any need for your sarcasm? Surely im entitled to give a opinion? Or is my opnion only valid if it agrees with yours?

Sent from my vivo Y35 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[BlueSlue]

Originally Posted by socaldmax

Do you honestly believe a black couple is going to buy a cruising boat and sail around the world simply because they saw images of a black guy on a brochure at a boat show? How do you get them to show up at the boat show? Advertise in magazines that target them? Doesn't that seem a little, I dunno...

manipulative? Contrived? Coercive?

I always thought the call of the sea was a deeply personal message to one's soul, almost like the siren sound of mermaids calling one to buy a boat and dump all of their money into the hole in the water.

I must be the only person on the entire planet who is impervious to advertising. Or at least that's how it seems.

Yes, that is exactly the point of advertising - to manipulate people into buying your product. There are plenty of black people who have money to spend on expensive homes, cars and jewelry. Why not cruising boats? Why is it so hard to imagine that black people could ever be interested in boating or buy a yacht? Not to mention people of other ethnicities... I believe in equal opportunity manipulation.

Do you honestly believe that black people (brown people, female people and so on) only consume media that is specifically targeted to them?

I think you missed where I said,
"However, she essentially accused him of being sexist and racist based on lack of eye contact with her and marketing materials and then proceeded to give him suggestions on how to run his business."

I think we are in agreement that her post was unfair to this guy. However, I still feel she made some valid points in general. The OP stated in her blog that she is concerned that the boating market is getting smaller. It's a fact that the main demographic of boating, white men, is shrinking relative to other groups in the U.S. Isn't it short-sighted not to actively market to all kinds of people?

I agree that it would be nice to be in a post-racial, post-gender world. Race, gender etc. shouldn't matter in the business world or the boating world, but it does for the simple reason that cognitive biases will always exist because our brains are wired to make short-cuts in thinking such as stereotypes. We need such heuristics to cut through all the data that flies at us constantly, but sometimes it leads us to make assumptions that aren't completely accurate.

It's not about tally-taking. It's about a lost opportunity for the business owner to appeal to more potential customers.

Using the hair salon example from a previous post - as a white male would you be more likely or less likely to drop in for a haircut at a salon that only displayed pictures of black females? I would bet the answer is less likely because you would assume that 1) they do not know how to cut your hair in a way works for you and 2) you may not be welcome in that shop. In reality, neither 1) nor 2) may be true, but how would you guess that based on their advertisement? Wouldn't you walk on by and look for a hair salon that displays pictures of white males? Wouldn't that be the rational thing to do? Let's say that you find a shop that displays pictures of people of various ethnicities and genders, including white men. Would you feel offended by the diversity of pictures? Most likely not. The typical reaction would be to feel comfortable that this shops caters to people like yourself and not to be concerned that it also caters to other types of people.

Turning that around, can you see that it would be perfectly rational for black people to walk right by a booth at a show that displays pictures of only white people? It would be really easy for them to assume that the product for sale isn't for them. Or to not attend the boat show at all because ads for the show don't have black people in them? Why should they think they are welcome there, especially given the history of racism in the U.S.? Now extrapolate that to other groups.

If your product or service is really meant for all types of people, then including all types of people in your advertising photos makes sense because it is a simple and primal signal to potential customers that hey - this is for you, too. It really isn't that difficult or additionally expensive to do and I would argue that the payoff is there.

I didn't watch the videos. I'll take your word for it that various people are represented in them. It's a shame that the pictures on the boxes shown on the website don't reflect that. It's probably inadvertent.

However, racism and sexism do happen. Sometimes maliciously, but mostly not. It’s frustrating when a real problem is denied because one party can't imagine themselves in the other party's shoes. There are better ways to handle this. We can be more empathetic toward one another. We can learn to identify when we making assumptions about people and investigate whether our assumptions are justified or not. And as Ann T. Cate pointed out – it goes both ways.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by BlueSlue

Yes, that is exactly the point of advertising - to manipulate people into buying your product. There are plenty of black people who have money to spend on expensive homes, cars and jewelry. Why not cruising boats? Why is it so hard to imagine that black people could ever be interested in boating or buy a yacht? Not to mention people of other ethnicities... I believe in equal opportunity manipulation.

Do you honestly believe that black people (brown people, female people and so on) only consume media that is specifically targeted to them?

I think you missed where I said,
"However, she essentially accused him of being sexist and racist based on lack of eye contact with her and marketing materials and then proceeded to give him suggestions on how to run his business."

I think we are in agreement that her post was unfair to this guy. However, I still feel she made some valid points in general. The OP stated in her blog that she is concerned that the boating market is getting smaller. It's a fact that the main demographic of boating, white men, is shrinking relative to other groups in the U.S. Isn't it short-sighted not to actively market to all kinds of people?

I agree that it would be nice to be in a post-racial, post-gender world. Race, gender etc. shouldn't matter in the business world or the boating world, but it does for the simple reason that cognitive biases will always exist because our brains are wired to make short-cuts in thinking such as stereotypes. We need such heuristics to cut through all the data that flies at us constantly, but sometimes it leads us to make assumptions that aren't completely accurate.

It's not about tally-taking. It's about a lost opportunity for the business owner to appeal to more potential customers.

Using the hair salon example from a previous post - as a white male would you be more likely or less likely to drop in for a haircut at a salon that only displayed pictures of black females? I would bet the answer is less likely because you would assume that 1) they do not know how to cut your hair in a way works for you and 2) you may not be welcome in that shop. In reality, neither 1) nor 2) may be true, but how would you guess that based on their advertisement? Wouldn't you walk on by and look for a hair salon that displays pictures of white males? Wouldn't that be the rational thing to do? Let's say that you find a shop that displays pictures of people of various ethnicities and genders, including white men. Would you feel offended by the diversity of pictures? Most likely not. The typical reaction would be to feel comfortable that this shops caters to people like yourself and not to be concerned that it also caters to other types of people.

Turning that around, can you see that it would be perfectly rational for black people to walk right by a booth at a show that displays pictures of only white people? It would be really easy for them to assume that the product for sale isn't for them. Or to not attend the boat show at all because ads for the show don't have black people in them? Why should they think they are welcome there, especially given the history of racism in the U.S.? Now extrapolate that to other groups.

If your product or service is really meant for all types of people, then including all types of people in your advertising photos makes sense because it is a simple and primal signal to potential customers that hey - this is for you, too. It really isn't that difficult or additionally expensive to do and I would argue that the payoff is there.

I didn't watch the videos. I'll take your word for it that various people are represented in them. It's a shame that the pictures on the boxes shown on the website don't reflect that. It's probably inadvertent.

However, racism and sexism do happen. Sometimes maliciously, but mostly not. It’s frustrating when a real problem is denied because one party can't imagine themselves in the other party's shoes. There are better ways to handle this. We can be more empathetic toward one another. We can learn to identify when we making assumptions about people and investigate whether our assumptions are justified or not. And as Ann T. Cate pointed out – it goes both ways.

Your understanding of marketing and advertising seems limited.

Sent from my vivo Y35 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[weavis]

Exclusively Black members of the Museum Shores Yacht club in
5900 S Lake Shore Dr
Chicago, Illinois 60637
Phone +1 773-667-9538

I wonder if I should complain that Im excluded? Seems a great party...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO7mSti4Y1E

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by weavis

Exclusively Black members of the Museum Shores Yacht club in
5900 S Lake Shore Dr
Chicago, Illinois 60637
Phone +1 773-667-9538

I wonder if I should complain that Im excluded? Seems a great party...

Not exclusively black mate.. I spotted several white females amongst the 'Power Boaters'..

[Jim Cate]

Getting back to the interaction between the blogger and the salesman:

The interaction, as it developed, was unsatisfactory to the lady involved, and I reckon that the chap could have done a lot better job of selling and of being a decent person.

On the other hand, the woman could have manipulated the situation far better on her own behalf. For instance, she could have asked intelligent questions demonstrating her interest in the program. She could have mentioned that s he was an active sailor with interests in licensing. Being proactive rather than waiting for eye contact... almost anything that showed that she was a participating partner, not a "pit popsie" would likely have turned the situation around. Seems to me that she is using the racial/advertising issue to respond to a perceived personal affront. I may be wrong... I wasn't there and can only react to what I read.

Should a customer of any gender or race need to take this sort of active role when interacting with a vendor? Hell no, but if a real desire to use the service offered existed, a bit of effort on her part would likely have reaped some benefits, and the need for the really negative comments would vanish.

In my rather minimal experience, part of a salesman's job is to distinguish between "real" prospects and tire kickers. Selling anything to a kicker is unlikely, so time spent with them is often limited. The customer, especially in a crowded boat show environment, for his own benefit needs to somehow show that he (she, it) is actually a potential buyer. Perhaps not the best possible scene, not as we would like it to be, but I reckon a reality to be dealt with. Cries of sexism/racism etc may be justified, but are not productive and benefit no one in such a venue.

As to the racially/sexually biased advertising issue... sheesh! We ain't talking about enticing newbies into a sailing environment. This seems to have been a program leading to professional licensing of mariners. At such a level, worrying about balanced populations of images in brochures seems immaterial. It is the details of the program material and tuition that matter IMO.

In the long run, I hope that she and her husband can find a program that meets both their professional requirements and their societal desires... if such exists.

Jim

[weavis]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Not exclusively black mate.. I spotted several white females amongst the 'Power Boaters'..

Tucked on the back side of The Museum of Science and Industry is the 59th Street Harbor, a powerboat harbor (the entrance to the Lake goes underneath Lake Shore Drive which precludes masted boats).

African American James Reid joined Museum Shores Yacht Club in 1972. The first African American became a member in the 1950's or 1960's. The place was a shack originally (leased from the Chicago Park District and called a "shack" in the lease document). Through time, and through dues, the building has been rehabbed inside and out, added onto including restrooms and a kitchen and has been rented out for parties and weddings due to its new grace.

Docks in the harbor were old school for a long time - wood poles pounded into the harbor bottom and a wiggly dock nailed on. They had no power, fresh water, or anything else. In more recent years the Chicago Park District and Westrec (Private Company Manager of Harbors in Chicago) upgraded the docks to floating, with electricity, fresh water, and a pump-out station. A much appreciated and accepted improvement.

Being off the radar due to its location, the people in the harbor love the location. It's right off Lake Shore Drive, right next to the Lake, within walking distance of the Museum or Science and Industry, Chinese Gardens, Tennis Courts, and Bowling Greens. The fauna around the harbor is beautiful. Location, location, location.

The members worked hard to make sure it was youthful and astronomical fun. They ran boating classes for the youth, and within the harbor was a building for the Sea Scout Ship and they included the Sea Scouts regularly in club activities. They worked at being good community citizens, not only with the youth, but with the elderly too. Each year they organized a Senior Citizens Day doing a cook-out with burgers, hot dogs and boat rides by busing the Seniors from local homes to the event.

They held lots of parties throughout the year, and are known for being the partying club. Their biggest event is their Fish Fry.

James loves the club as it was full of great people who stepped up to volunteer to run the place through the years. He also is convinced that it is the best harbor in the Lake in his not-so humble opinion. While it's not often anyone publishes the dues of a yacht club (I don't know why?). James shared with me that dues are $150.......annually. Such a deal.

Did I mention this club is 100% African American?

African American Sailors in Chicago – Really? Really. | Live Your Dream: Sail Lake Michigan

[weavis]

LOL

For me, I see that one blogger used the power of their platform to highlight an issue that may or may not have a basis in reality.

The "reality" is that we dont know what really happened. I often am approached by people intent on making a point and I pick up on the body language and know I have a spanking ahead of me if I dont control the situation, I also know that whatever I do or say is subject to a pre formed opinion and EVERYTHING will be filtered through that. Innocent actions or reactions are altered to suit the mindset.

There is no doubt in my mind that changes are required in a lot of areas in society. However, making a political correct action removes individuality.

Dont like something? Move on. Been attacked verbally or abused? report it. Dont like someones personality? oh dear. Dont like their personal inadequacies in business dealings? Well aint much you can do about that. Dont like their advertising? Well unless its offensive or abusive there aint much you can do about it.... omission of something YOU want to see is not a crime... unless you join the PC crowd and MAKE people do everything that you want. Then you have joined the thuggery mob.

Sorry, actually Im not sorry because i have nothing to be sorry about. This is a female -male issue of expectation vs reality.

2 weeks ago I went into the local bakery opposite my apartment. The woman there ignored me in favour of local Spanish until one woman waiting for the bread suddenly lambasted the server for showing such poor manners to a foreigner and told her that I was the doctor that cured her daughter recently and that if anything I should have been served first! I have never seen this woman before but know in Spain everyone knows everyone or is related.... the woman behind the counter looked sad and apologised. She said it was not because I was foreign it was because I looked like her cheating ex boyfriend and she could not face me.... that then changed all the conversation with the women and a great chat ensued... I asked for my bread, apologised for looking like him and promised to wear a wig next time... I left to everyone laughing and happy....

the moral of this story? She was kinda hot and now I know she is free....

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by weavis

Tucked on the back side of The Museum of Science and Industry is the 59th Street Harbor, a powerboat harbor (the entrance to the Lake goes underneath Lake Shore Drive which precludes masted boats).

African American James Reid joined Museum Shores Yacht Club in 1972. The first African American became a member in the 1950's or 1960's. The place was a shack originally (leased from the Chicago Park District and called a "shack" in the lease document). Through time, and through dues, the building has been rehabbed inside and out, added onto including restrooms and a kitchen and has been rented out for parties and weddings due to its new grace.

Docks in the harbor were old school for a long time - wood poles pounded into the harbor bottom and a wiggly dock nailed on. They had no power, fresh water, or anything else. In more recent years the Chicago Park District and Westrec (Private Company Manager of Harbors in Chicago) upgraded the docks to floating, with electricity, fresh water, and a pump-out station. A much appreciated and accepted improvement.

Being off the radar due to its location, the people in the harbor love the location. It's right off Lake Shore Drive, right next to the Lake, within walking distance of the Museum or Science and Industry, Chinese Gardens, Tennis Courts, and Bowling Greens. The fauna around the harbor is beautiful. Location, location, location.

The members worked hard to make sure it was youthful and astronomical fun. They ran boating classes for the youth, and within the harbor was a building for the Sea Scout Ship and they included the Sea Scouts regularly in club activities. They worked at being good community citizens, not only with the youth, but with the elderly too. Each year they organized a Senior Citizens Day doing a cook-out with burgers, hot dogs and boat rides by busing the Seniors from local homes to the event.

They held lots of parties throughout the year, and are known for being the partying club. Their biggest event is their Fish Fry.

James loves the club as it was full of great people who stepped up to volunteer to run the place through the years. He also is convinced that it is the best harbor in the Lake in his not-so humble opinion. While it's not often anyone publishes the dues of a yacht club (I don't know why?). James shared with me that dues are $150.......annually. Such a deal.

Did I mention this club is 100% African American?

African American Sailors in Chicago – Really? Really. | Live Your Dream: Sail Lake Michigan

Gotchya..!!

[StuM]

Originally Posted by weavis

LOL

the moral of this story? She was kinda hot and now I know she is free....

Every cloud has a silver lining

[weavis]

Originally Posted by StuM

Every cloud has a silver lining

I wonder if someone will write a blog post about my obviously male attitude?

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by weavis

I wonder if someone will write a blog post about my obviously male attitude?

So, this foreigner goes into a bakery wearing a wig...

[siamese]

Okay, so I clicked on the link and read most of the article.

I think you're blowing this out of proportion. What do you think happens to me, a male, when I go to Joanne Fabrics to buy sewing supplies? I can tell you they have have a 'what are you doing here' attitude when I ask for assistance. It's a little annoying, but why would I let that bother me?

If I want to get a little respect, I can just go to the motorcycle store.

Moral of the story, they talk to the people who typically buy from them and make the decisions. A little short-sighted perhaps, but that's all.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by siamese

Okay, so I clicked on the link and read most of the article.

I think you're blowing this out of proportion. What do you think happens to me, a male, when I go to Joanne Fabrics to buy sewing supplies? I can tell you they have have a 'what are you doing here' attitude when I ask for assistance. It's a little annoying, but why would I let that bother me?

If I want to get a little respect, I can just go to the motorcycle store.

Moral of the story, they talk to the people who typically buy from them and make the decisions. A little short-sighted perhaps, but that's all.

Except, you dont write a blog article about it and castigate men and want the advertising YOUR way to reflect all mankind and womankind and colour and caste etc..

That my friend... is how political correctness works and morally degrades people until they comply...

Oh wait.... free beer.. later.

[GoingWalkabout]

Originally Posted by weavis

Except, you dont write a blog article about it and castigate men and want the advertising YOUR way to reflect all mankind and womankind and colour and caste etc..

That my friend... is how political correctness works and morally degrades people until they comply...

Oh wait.... free beer.. later.

Well said. Speaking as a women, I think this blogger is a piece of nasty work. A chip on her shoulder and rude. If I was the business person who was attacked is such a way I would file a law suit for defamation. You can't go around slandering people and think it is OK.

I expect to see more of this character assisination by the next generation of brain washed idiots coming out of our colleges. They proudly call themselves SJW (Social Justice Warriors) when all they are is low intelligence social misfits with an attitude. And I am holding back in order to be politically correct.

I live part of the time in Argentina. It still annoys me when a waiter hands the check to the male even though I was the one calling for the check and I was the one paying for the meal. Do l tell him that his presumption was degrading of me as an equal member of society. No. Instead I note that everyone makes assumptions and act accordingly.

In business I find very little to no gender based discrimination. I get respect because I earn respect. I don't demand it. My achievement's speak for themselves.

These SJW types are a mindless bunch of indoctrinated losers. IMHO.