What is a Normal Tip for an Instructor at a Sailing Course

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by markpierce

As a federal auditor of contract and grant recipients, I was never directly offered a "tip" although there were a few times I was wise to ignore a "soft" tip.

Ha, you never worked in Central America..."tips" are standard business practice...especially when dealing with officials.[emoji6]

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

Ha, you never worked in Central America..."tips" are standard business practice...especially when dealing with officials.[emoji6]

Yup ... Tipping (or the more blunt term: bribing) thrives in areas of high wealth inequality and low rule of law. It's a great method for keeping the plebes down as they work to keep the masters happy.

No ... a tipping economy is a bad idea, unless you are on top. The best employees -- the ones who provide good service to customers -- are happy employees. One important way to keep people happy is to pay them fairly.

Tipping is a reality in the lower-end service sectors of the North American economies. It is expanding b/c businesses are decreasingly in the business of maintaining staff. Contracting out, freelance, temporary, part-time, and the increasing reliance on tipping are all shades of the same issue. Like I said, the expansion of this should not be supported.

Captain Frank, I'm sure you're an upstanding person and a great instructor. You may be one of those few who really are uninfluenced by money. But most people are not as strong (as you note in your desire for more tipping). As such, an instructor who works for tips is placed into a moral hazard of the kind unbefitting the task. Having a charter crew work for tips is one thing. Having the person who is grading and certifying the competency of the tipper is simply a bad idea. If you allow this, then why not allow rich kids to tip their professors.

I've taken a number of sailing courses, as have my wife. I am directly acquainted with dozens of other similar situations and NONE of them were with schools that suggested tipping is normal.

I'm completely with you that if a tip really is a tip, in that it is freely offered for exceptional services rendered, then great. But tipping someone just for doing their job is good for no one.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Yup ... Tipping (or the more blunt term: bribing) thrives in areas of high wealth inequality and low rule of law. It's a great method for keeping the plebes down as they work to keep the masters happy.

No ... a tipping economy is a bad idea, unless you are on top. The best employees -- the ones who provide good service to customers -- are happy employees. One important way to keep people happy is to pay them fairly.

Tipping is a reality in the lower-end service sectors of the North American economies. It is expanding b/c businesses are decreasingly in the business of maintaining staff. Contracting out, freelance, temporary, part-time, and the increasing reliance on tipping are all shades of the same issue. Like I said, the expansion of this should not be supported.

Captain Frank, I'm sure you're an upstanding person and a great instructor. You may be one of those few who really are uninfluenced by money. But most people are not as strong (as you note in your desire for more tipping). As such, an instructor who works for tips is placed into a moral hazard of the kind unbefitting the task. Having a charter crew work for tips is one thing. Having the person who is grading and certifying the competency of the tipper is simply a bad idea. If you allow this, then why not allow rich kids to tip their professors.

I've taken a number of sailing courses, as have my wife. I am directly acquainted with dozens of other similar situations and NONE of them were with schools that suggested tipping is normal.

I'm completely with you that if a tip really is a tip, in that it is freely offered for exceptional services rendered, then great. But tipping someone just for doing their job is good for no one.

Yes, a tip for a sailing, or other, instruction could create a conflict of interest. Ive been an instructor for decades and occassionsally receive tips. I accept them as an expression of appreciation and would never accept them with any expectations attached. Thats true of most instructors I know...I like to think. Of course those in dire need of cash might be a bit more "flexible". Regardless, Ive never received a tip as an instructor with the insinuation that it was actually "fee for service".

When working as a charter captain, tips are the norm and usually encouraged by the charter company. In this case, tips are often a substantial portion of the compensation for captain and crew...often exceeding their daily rate compensation. No conflict in this case.

Maybe sailing schools should suggest that tips only be offered after training (and results) is completed to help mitigate inappropriate behavior?

[BandB]

Originally Posted by bluwaterdream

what?! that "supplement" income is how I plan to pay for my boat/sailing, although all these new video cameras are making it difficult


this is an interesting topic as I look into sailing schools. I guess I will just factor a tip into the cost and if I don't spend it its a bonus.

I think you just try to find out up front if gratuities are expected. The school that started this made it clear on their website that they appreciated, which translates to expected. So, I factor that into the cost when looking at it. Rest assured, the employer sure is doing so and they've justified the amount they're paying by telling the teacher there will be tips.

We're in a country where many jobs are "tip dependent." The expectation of tips is taken into consideration when hiring and paying. I'm not saying whether it's a good system or bad, it's just the one in place. Restaurants and taxis were the first I really knew. Hairdressers.Then the bellman in a hotel. Then it's the coat check person, the baggage attendant. Hotel maids seems to have become one. I was surprised my first time on a tour bus and a tour boat that they were expected. Yacht managers get them frequently as do captains used for trips. Then all charter boat crew and that's generally made clear when you charter and isn't a US thing but worldwide. If you get Pizza or other food delivered, the drivers survive only by tips. One of the more recent tip arguments was the Uber set up for their drivers not to get tips. They finally got them to change since Lyft had tips and taxi drivers and limo drivers get tips. Uber drivers sure don't make a lot of money so I prefer the ability to tip them. Now when I was a kid, I remember my mom tipping the person who helped her to the car with groceries, but most grocery stores do not allow tips today. Neither do they allow tips when they deliver.

The one that's always been one I didn't tip was when I got a take out order in a sandwich shoppe where you order from the counter or bought donuts or something. But now you see some of them with tip jars. Those sort of annoy me as I don't even know who they'll go to or how they're split and have no ability to direct it to who I want.

Only one time I recall not tipping in a tipping situation. It was a bus tour to Hoover Dam from Vegas. The driver started from the beginning announcing that tips were appreciated, made a big point of it. Then started pointing out neighborhoods and saying they were nice but of course bus drivers didn't live in them. Pointed in the direction bus drivers lived. He repeated this on the trip up and back. Made two more announcements about tips. Was a lousy tour guide too busy telling us how horribly poor and how little money he made or trying to convey that. Then of course money laid out on the area beside his seat showing where tips should be put. My wife and I agreed no tip for him, that he was just lucky we weren't complaining to his employer. Had he not begged and whined, we would absolutely have tipped. We tipped the pilot who flew us over the edge of the Grand Canyon very generously, but he made it a wonderful trip.

Thinking of the most common tipped job, waiter or waitress. We tip very generously. Now, if the service is poor, we tip less but still a decent trip. So what if the service is really bad? We ask to see the manager and we tell them. And sometimes we still tip but we complain to the manager. We complain if it's attitude but more often someone just not trained for the job. In the latter cases we still tip because the real problem is the manager putting someone on the floor who isn't trained. So, I don't mind tipping and I tip generously, but if service is bad, I'm going to react by complaining.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

Yes, a tip for a sailing, or other, instruction could create a conflict of interest. Ive been an instructor for decades and occassionsally receive tips. I accept them as an expression of appreciation and would never accept them with any expectations attached. Thats true of most instructors I know...I like to think. Of course those in dire need of cash might be a bit more "flexible". Regardless, Ive never received a tip as an instructor with the insinuation that it was actually "fee for service".

When working as a charter captain, tips are the norm and usually encouraged by the charter company. In this case, tips are often a substantial portion of the compensation for captain and crew...often exceeding their daily rate compensation. No conflict in this case.

Maybe sailing schools should suggest that tips only be offered after training (and results) is completed to help mitigate inappropriate behavior?

It's the "suggested tip" situation which I think is wrong. The OP, and then the recent follow up queries, have noted their school's documentation includes this "suggestion". At this point, it is not a real tip, but an actual part of the fee for the course.

A tip is supposed to be an offer of gratitude for exceptional service delivered beyond the expectation of the customer. But sadly (and not by accident) it has evolved into a way for companies to off-load staff costs directly onto consumers by underpaying them.

In your, and Frank's case, I think a tip freely offered can be graciously accepted. But any school that demands an expected tip for their instructors is not one our community should support.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

It's the "suggested tip" situation which I think is wrong. The OP, and then the recent follow up queries, have noted their school's documentation includes this "suggestion". At this point, it is not a real tip, but an actual part of the fee for the course.

A tip is supposed to be an offer of gratitude for exceptional service delivered beyond the expectation of the customer. But sadly (and not by accident) it has evolved into a way for companies to off-load staff costs directly onto consumers by underpaying them.

In your, and Frank's case, I think a tip freely offered can be graciously accepted. But any school that demands an expected tip for their instructors is not one our community should support.

You're correct. It's a part of the fee. No argument there. It's a part that goes to the instructor to make their pay decent. And, if you don't do it, the school makes the same amount, the instructor is underpaid.

If it's an acceptable deal including the tip, I'd still use them. I'd just compare them to other places.

I haven't been to a sailing school so wasn't familiar. I went to a maritime school with normal classrooms and boats and it was a no tipping situation.

You'll find one other thing too in many of these sailing schools and that is that the instructor is not an employee but a contractor. It's only part time work.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by BandB

You're correct. It's a part of the fee. No argument there. It's a part that goes to the instructor to make their pay decent. And, if you don't do it, the school makes the same amount, the instructor is underpaid.



If it's an acceptable deal including the tip, I'd still use them. I'd just compare them to other places.



I haven't been to a sailing school so wasn't familiar. I went to a maritime school with normal classrooms and boats and it was a no tipping situation.



You'll find one other thing too in many of these sailing schools and that is that the instructor is not an employee but a contractor. It's only part time work.

Agree on all counts. I have no problem paying the full fee for a valued service. And that includes the cost of a fairly compensated staff. What these companies are doing is playing games with their advertised rates, and off-loading the cost of workers directly onto the customers. It makes them seem more competative, while making the cost and risk of labour another externality that is paid by someone else.

I'll say it again, "suggested tipping" of instructors is not the norm. But if we all passively line up like hens to the slaughter house, it will become the norm.

As Nancy Regan so eloquently put it: Just Say No!

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

It's the "suggested tip" situation which I think is wrong. The OP, and then the recent follow up queries, have noted their school's documentation includes this "suggestion". At this point, it is not a real tip, but an actual part of the fee for the course.

A tip is supposed to be an offer of gratitude for exceptional service delivered beyond the expectation of the customer. But sadly (and not by accident) it has evolved into a way for companies to off-load staff costs directly onto consumers by underpaying them.

In your, and Frank's case, I think a tip freely offered can be graciously accepted. But any school that demands an expected tip for their instructors is not one our community should support.

There are two sides to that coin though. If working as an instructor/captain it is financially good to work with a company that suggests a tip to guests...not demands...but suggests it as voluntary. Because tips can be a significant portion of compensation. If companies dont make such suggestion then of course tips will likely be less.

Also, sailing instructors and charter captains are typically not employees of the company, but more commonly work as independent contractors. They are usually paid a daily rate which is based on prevailing market rates in the venue. Ive known companies who would try and squeeze below market rates out of these contractors using the logic that they would also get tips. These same companies are also the ones who are least likely to promote the practice of tipping...not a good scenario for the contractor. As a contractor of course, they can always walk away from the deal.

On the student/guest side, Ive been asked by them what is an appropriate tip when the company fails to communicate that. This has usually been in the context of what is appropriate for crew (on a charter, the tip is usually pooled and then divided between captain and crew. I usually give most of the tip money to the crew...especially the cook...who is the hardest working person aboard. My logic is that on a normal charter they are usually working much harder than I am anyway. And, this is just for fun and some extra boat bucks for me...crew are usually working for a living).

I agree that aggressively "demanding" a tip is inappropriate and would not pay one myself in that scenario.

[KetoNomad]

Originally Posted by Blue Crab

Yep. Don't do it. Folks often tip the crew of our dive boats but never the scuba instructors. This tipping thing has gotten absurd. I'm seeing tip jars in convenience stores!

+1 ��

[FlyingScot]

This thread has got me thinking about signing up for BWSS later this summer.
I don't mind tipping for good/great service. Very rarely do I forego a tip for normally tipped jobs. I usually leave money for drivers, wait staff, hair, hotel maids, music at restaurants, etc.

From their FAQ: As always, a gratuity is entirely at your discretion. However, it is standard practice in the industry to pay a gratuity to your instructor. A typical tip would range between 15% - 20% of your course fee.

$2500 course that's $375-$500. That is well beyond my comfort zone for a 'tip'. I don't think I've ever tipped any single person more than a hundred in my entire 45 years of life.

I don't want to be 'that guy' who refuses to tip but I surely lean to the side of the argument that I'm not interested in tipping just because you expect it. People on this thread talking about the captains approaching them after the school and demanding a tip is CRAZY IMO.

Really how much should the teaching captain expect? 4 students x $450 = $1800. Do they not pay them anything? After all I would expect his provisions to be paid for by the school.

[Mike OReilly]

I suggest you pick a different sailing school, one that doesn't have this kind of fee structure. And tell the current school why you've changed.

[Cottontop]

I hate the whole expanding expectation for tips. Why? Because I have no idea what is really customary in all of these situations. I don't want to be a cheapskate, and I don't want to be taken advantage of. I certainly don't want an ugly scene with someone who feels I slighted them. Just tell me the price for something. The business owner has a much better idea how much their staff needs to make to retain them, than I do. I think this is largely about tax avoidance, and as someone who pays a lot of taxes, I am not a fan of others not paying.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I suggest you pick a different sailing school, one that doesn't have this kind of fee structure. And tell the current school why you've changed.

Aha. You don't like the policy of one, go somewhere else. But if you choose the one that clearly outlined expected gratuities, you follow their recommendation.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Cottontop

I hate the whole expanding expectation for tips. Why? Because I have no idea what is really customary in all of these situations. I don't want to be a cheapskate, and I don't want to be taken advantage of. I certainly don't want an ugly scene with someone who feels I slighted them. Just tell me the price for something. The business owner has a much better idea how much their staff needs to make to retain them, than I do. I think this is largely about tax avoidance, and as someone who pays a lot of taxes, I am not a fan of others not paying.

I don't grasp the "expanding expectation" comment as I really think perhaps you're just being more exposed. Tipping has changed very little in my lifetime. As to sailing schools requesting tips, that's just a single school. Now I think many do tip at schools but smaller amounts.

As to tax avoidance, in some situations perhaps but others not. Restaurants have very strong reporting guidelines today so most tips are reported. Also, the fact most pay by credit card makes it impossible not to. I know many yacht crew professionals who do or have done charters. They always reported their tips because the IRS clearly knows industry practices and has audit instructions based on industry and profession.

In some jobs overlooking small tips might not get noticed but in jobs dependent on tips, it will be noticed. A friend of ours knew a yacht stewardess who didn't report her tips from charters. She not only got normal interest and penalties but it rose to fraud level and criminal based on under reporting her income by more than 20%. She spent her life savings getting out of the situation and avoiding jail time. Ended up costing her about five times what she saved by cheating.

And as a side note because the yacht didn't report tips paid or require the employees to report to them the amounts so they could report, her audit led to every member of the crew being audited.

Also, huge risk for employers as they're responsible for social security and medicare on tips. The boat above wasn't US flagged so not subject to those rules.

Now, outside the US it's very different.

US tip reporting laws apply to all employees receiving more than $20 per month in tips. So, sailing school above is required by law to have each employee keep daily tip records and report to them the tips received if these are employees. I suspect they're contractors though.

[Cottontop]

Originally Posted by BandB

I suspect they're contractors though.

I suspect the IRS, and other governmental agencies, considers the people providing instruction at a sailing school to be employees, no matter what the school may call them, or what they consider themselves to be. Why do they, or does the school, want them to be "contractors"? Tax avoidance. Or overtime avoidance. Or benefits avoidance. Or ACA avoidance.

As to tips, I see it spreading outside the US, but aimed at people from the US. I think it's bad business. Why put your customers in the awkward position of trying to figure out how much to pay your employees. You can see the effect in this thread; people looking for alternatives.