When to tip your skipper

[trswem]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I cannot comprehend why people can't see how clearly wrong this is.

Can you comprehend why it is inherently a conflict-of-interest to have your instructor -- the one who is grading your performance -- to be passed a $100. Was there a wink with it?

Come on... it's basic stuff. If you think this is acceptable, then you have no problem with university students slipping their profs some extra cash. Heck, how about your immediate boss just before they do your performance review?

It's great you found a top-notch learning environment, and apparently at an excellent price. But that's what you paid for. It's the very thing you were purchasing. It would be like saying you like your car, so instead of just paying the agreed price, you insisted on adding more.

Just call it what it is: a way to offload wage costs directly onto the customer. The only ones who really benefit from this practice are the business owners.

The tip occurs long after the grading and skills testing are complete. There is no conflict of interest. Your comments are built on such a mountain of ignorance and false analogy that I won’t even begin to take it on. I won’t be responding to any additional comments from you bud.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by trswem

The tip occurs long after the grading and skills testing are complete. There is no conflict of interest. Your comments are built on such a mountain of ignorance and false analogy that I won’t even begin to take it on. I won’t be responding to any additional comments from you bud.

Surely you're not this naive. If a tip becomes the norm, then it becomes an expected part of the transaction.

In the case we are discussing, the school recommended a tip be added. It wasn't something out of the blue. THAT is the problem with this situation.

[PNWSalmon]

We teach for 8 hours a day, and spend 2 full days on-board with the overnight learning students. I'm away from my family, and I often have to sleep either in the cockpit or whatever space is leftover. I have almost zero downtime and I am basically working 24 hours for the price of 8. When students tip me, it's at the end, after the class is over, when they fill out their anonymous survey in a sealed envelope. They have the option of giving a tip. This is after the testing is done, both the skills test and the question and answers.

There is no way I'm going to pass a student for a "bribe". That violates everything that I stand for as a sailing instructor. I'm in this business to train the best people on the water, not to pass the incompetent because they slipped me $50.

Additionally, in the overnight format, each lesson plan is tailored to the individual. Students often have specific areas they want to work on, and I spend time before and after the class tailoring the class for them. I often answer questions long after the class is done.

I try to deliver an exceptional experience, and it's appreciated when students give a tip. It's a service, and in most places service providers receive a tip.

And finally, most of us that teach are doing it for the love of sailing and to spread the love and train the next generation of competent, safe, and capable sea going folk. We certainly aren't getting rich doing this, and the economics of the businesses mean that charging more doesn't really pencil out for everyone.

So anyway, tip or don't that's fine, but at least appreciate that the people that are teaching you sailing are doing it for the love and passion of the water, and supporting them with a kind word, great comments on a survey, or a tip, goes a long way.

[5BTM]

"It's a service, and in most places service providers receive a tip"

Have you ever experienced sitting in a cafe, slowly sipping a cup of delicious coffee, without being interupted or rushed by service personel who know how much money they will earn in a given working day regardless of the whims of the customers?

Most first world countries function like that.

[Wotname]

The sailing instructor is a professional instructor.
The rigger is professional rigger.
The sail boat surveyor is a professional surveyor.
The marine diesel mechanic is a professional mechanic.
The boat painter is a professional painter.
The boat broker is a professional broker.
The insurance provider is a professional insurance salesperson.
etc...

They are all service providers.

Which ones should be tipped?

A. all
B. none
C. Some

If the answer is C, it becomes kind of hard to justify unless you use the excuse that the business are not paying their staff commensurate with their skill set. How the heck does the client know before hand if they have to 'top up' the service providers pay. If the professional 'X' is getting paid properly, then a tip should be an embarrassment or seen as a bribe.

[PNWSalmon]

Originally Posted by 5BTM

"It's a service, and in most places service providers receive a tip"

Have you ever experienced sitting in a cafe, slowly sipping a cup of delicious coffee, without being interupted or rushed by service personel who know how much money they will earn in a given working day regardless of the whims of the customers?

Most first world countries function like that.

I guess I just had rotten luck at birth. Maybe I’ll live in a first world country someday.

[5BTM]

"I guess I just had rotten luck at birth. Maybe I’ll live in a first world country someday."

May your dream come true.

[kayakerChuck]

I'm a part time sailing instructor and have a weird observation. Both of these schools are/were in roughly the same location and have roughly the same demographics.

In the late 1990's and early 2000's I ran a Windsurfing school. Just about every student gave me or my instructors a tip. Usually it was $20, but sometimes it was 100% of the cost of the course. Every tip I received was after the student got a pass/fail from the course. I very much was teaching for the income.

Now, I'm teaching sailing for a local ASA affiliate. I like to think I'm providing the same level of care and instruction as I did when I taught Windsurfing. I've gotten lots of earnest "Thank-You"s, but not any monetary tip. I'm OK with this- I'm teaching because it's fun for me and I don't really expect a tip.

In my real job (making marine canvas), I rarely receive tips. I do get the occasional "round up to a number with zeros". Every few years, someone will give me an extra boat buck or two. This may or may not be a significant percentage of the job cost.

(I have tipped most of the providers on Wotname's list. In the USA, if somebody goes above and beyond what I think is reasonable, I will tip them. Especially the pizza delivery driver who showed up more than an hour late to my place. I was not willing to risk taking my car anywhere in the ice storm. Delivery was available, I took it. I tipped him handsomely- as he was bitching at me because because he was late.)

[Mike OReilly]

if somebody goes above and beyond what I think is reasonable, I will tip them

I think most people would, and do. But this gets to the crux of the problem with the ever-expanding "tipping culture." Most of these payments are NOT for service "above and beyond" what is reasonable. These payments are now part of the expected pay-package of the worker.

An actual tip is not a problem, although it still should never be employed in positions where one person holds power over another. But when the school "suggests" students tip their instructor, then it's no longer a real tip. And it should be obvious why having the students directly pay the wages of their instructors who are going to judge a student's performance, is simply wrong. If you feel that strongly about the program, then buy the school some new equipment.

Would anyone suggest high school or university students should be tipping their profs? How about the police, judges, your doctor... How about tipping your boss? If not, then why not? Many will be providing exceptional service to you. What's the difference?

[kayakerChuck]

I agree that asking for tips is, at best- tacky. Especially the school asking for tips.

(I've spent significant time in other cultures where tipping is- different. It may be have changed, but when I lived in Mexico, the wait staff at the local fancy restaurant was essentially unpaid. They worked for tips. Not once did I ever lift a beer and put it back on the table without having the water ring wiped off the table before my glass came back down. For a long time, that was my standard of service- lol. When I was in Japan, tipping was basically seen as an insult.)

[Foswick]

Any bodhran players out there? If so, the question you should be asking, "When should you skip your tipper?"

[JimmyDarci]

When in Rome…
In the US, charter captains get 10-20% of the total cost as a cash tip from guests routinely. I know because I was a charter captain. This is never something I would ask for or expect. However, after going the extra mile with guide info, customizing each stage of the trip, ensuring warm blankets and cocoa etc…, the guests recognize that in the United States, service industries tip the staff. This is not open to debate… the fact is that the vast majority of American guests tip American captains and crew.

Having traveled to other parts of the world, I try to do what is customary in those places but do not suppose tipping is the same for a captain in the Med or, God forbid, the. British Isles. Someone else can comment on standards when in tip resistant/ tip controlled economies.

[singlespeed]

Whenever an entity uses this "suggested" tipping scam, I always decline and tell the alleged receiver I am supporting their cause to raise their wages by never coming back to their business again and telling all my friends about this scam.

[lestersails]

Agree with the general sentiment that tipping is out of control in the States these days. Also agree with Mike's point that tipping someone whose job it is to evaluate you poses an undeniable conflict of interest. Agree again that the company suggesting tipping in writing is a real problem*.
But this is an interesting scenario that the OP has framed - this is a liveaboard course where the instructor is also the staff for a crewed charter. A number of posters have agreed that if you go on a crewed sailing charter that it is appropriate to tip the crew. That is clearly a hospitality role.
So in this hybrid role - hospitality staff and instructor/evaluator - is it appropriate to tip? Which role supersedes?

*It would be helpful to know if the company's written material state that tipping is common only for the liveaboard course or if that is a general statement made for all the courses - liveaboard and non-liveaboard courses.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by cdocsail

When to tip? When you think the person who has been responsible to you for anything is not fairly paid.

And here is the HUGE problem with tipping. It is based on "you think." Few of us have any idea the TRUE wage of the person we are tipping. Not what the company pays, the TRUE wage.


A server earns sub-minimum wage (with a guarantee to make at least minimum wage). But, what do they take home? $50/hour? $100? And when you tip the server, do you know what percentage goes to the bus staff, the cook, etc? And why should a server get more for serving New York Strip than a house salad? Shouldn't it be based on hours spent with you, not the price of your meal? (I mean, it's about making up for poor wages, not about service, right?)



A teacher arguably makes poor wages, BEFORE the endless unpaid hours. And is arguably MUCH more critical to the country (and your student) then wait staff. Should you tip them what, $5/hour for each hour all year long with your kid? Maybe, what, $5K per year, per student?


What about the poorly paid kid putting brakes on your car at Midas? Shouldn't they make at least what a server makes?


Professionals -- ASA staff, etc, aren't normally tipped. In a 40 year career as an engineer, I never received $1 in tips (unless you count the occasional logo'd pen).


So, the question that has to be answered before considering the amount of the tip, is "What SHOULD an ASA captain make on a week-long trip (maybe 2% of an appropriate annual wage?), and what DOES he make? If you pay $2K for the week (never done it, don't know), and he gets half (does he?), and he has 5 students aboard, that's $5K per week. 52 weeks adds up to a LOT more than I ever made in my life -- and he didn't even have to go to college! Granted, he doesn't work 52 weeks a year -- but if I could make $5K/week and only work 25 weeks a year (even if those weeks were "on duty" 24 hours a day), I'd be like a pig in mud!


I am always amazed at hard working, low paid people (my daughter runs paperwork at a county courthouse, maybe double minimum wage) who generously tip wait staff that are pulling in triple what they are making per hour -- like somehow that is worth much more than whatever they do for a living.