Bent Rudder Post

[John A]

If the rudder post was bent by being in contact with the thru hull bearing it maybe possible that there is more damage than the rudder post. Also, bending the post back and forth may fatigue the post itself.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

I've replaced two and have trouble imaging in my head how that would work. There would have been no tolerance in my stand pipe for a messenger on the outside of the rudder post, and no way to attach it to the inside of the rudder post.

But we did do the job twice without hauling her out (first time the original rudder was severely compromised by rust. The second time rough seas and shallow water banged her butt on the bottom of a hard river bed).

I also know someone who straightened his with a come-along without taking it out of the boat. However, he did take the boat out of the water for it. My bend was 30º, and since it was still very new and that could have significantly weakened the rudder post, I decided against doing that.

RAku, many (possibly most) rudder posts are solid, not tubing. Thus, one can do as I suggested and attach a messenger line to the centerline of the post. No interference going out through the bearings that way.

I would also be concerned about damage to the bearings and/or the supporting structure, especially with a spade rudder, to say nothing of possible metallurgical changes to the shaft from the bending.

Cheers,

Jim

[fstbttms]

There is no reason to attach a messenger line, IMHO. The rudder on a Catalina 27 is small enough that the diver should have little trouble guiding it into place. I know I never have.

I think it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

[Jim Cate]

Fstb...

Apparently you have done the operation on a Cat 27. Is the rudder positively buoyant, or does it sink if dropped? (I suppose this depends on how water-saturated the foam core is).

Jim

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Fstb...

Apparently you have done the operation on a Cat 27. Is the rudder positively buoyant, or does it sink if dropped?

Honestly, I don't remember if I've specifically done a Catalina 27 or not. But certainly have done rudder R&R on similar boats. Most rudders are positive. In fact, the biggest challenge typically is ballasting the rudder to make it maneuverable underwater for the reinstallation.

[perchance]

I have had the rudder out of my Grampian 26 (on the hard) and it is very heavy. I would imagine the rudder on a Catalina 27 would be similar in size and weight.

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by perchance

I have had the rudder out of my Grampian 26 (on the hard) and it is very heavy. I would imagine the rudder on a Catalina 27 would be similar in size and weight.

What's your point? That it wouldn't be positively buoyant because it's heavy?

[perchance]

Originally Posted by fstbttms

What's your point? That it wouldn't be positively buoyant because it's heavy?

My point is that a saturated rudder potentially weighing 50 or more pounds may not be as easily maneuvered under water as you make it out to be. I don't think anyone who has lost a rudder at sea saw it floating away behind the boat.

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by perchance

My point is that a saturated rudder potentially weighing 50 or more pounds may not be as easily maneuvered under water as you make it out to be.

Said the guy who has never done it to the guy who has done it plenty.

[jkangas]

Originally Posted by perchance

My point is that a saturated rudder potentially weighing 50 or more pounds may not be as easily maneuvered under water as you make it out to be. I don't think anyone who has lost a rudder at sea saw it floating away behind the boat.

Unfortunately I have :-)

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by fstbttms

There is no reason to attach a messenger line, IMHO. The rudder on a Catalina 27 is small enough that the diver should have little trouble guiding it into place. I know I never have.

I think it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

I've only done a handful of rudders, but the water I did it in the tag line was mandatory to find the hole on the hull.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

RAku, many (possibly most) rudder posts are solid, not tubing. Thus, one can do as I suggested and attach a messenger line to the centerline of the post. No interference going out through the bearings that way.

I would also be concerned about damage to the bearings and/or the supporting structure, especially with a spade rudder, to say nothing of possible metallurgical changes to the shaft from the bending.

Cheers,

Jim

Concerns about metallurgical changes to the shaft is exactly why I ignored the advice of several experienced sailors, including one who has the same boat as me and who is the one who straightened his shaft with a come-along. He bent his in pretty much the same way -- in confused, shallow water (in his case, the Intracoastal) sailing only under his headsail. One wave broke under the stern while another, along with the headsail, kept the bow up, and the rudder hit bottom.

When my first one broke it was scary in retrospect to know that I had been sailing with a severely compromised rudder. I had no desire to do it again deliberately, especially with the replacement rudder, which was nearly brand new.

I bit the bullet, called the insurance company and replaced it.

There's some things you can go cheap on and the boat will keep sailing -- cockpit cusions, for instance. But not the rudder.

BTW, I found out why my neighbor lost a shroud last weekend -- lack of a cotter pin. He checked the rest of his turnbuckles and found another one the same way.

[Dulcesuenos]

Prop repair shops straighten prop.shafts all the time as well as props. Not sure whats under more strain a shaft a prop or a rudder post. We had one straightened a while back on another boat that was hollow and the prop.guy said it was a piece of cake , his biggest concern was doing any glass damage. I really think people get overly paranoid about them but whatever helps you.....

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos

Prop repair shops straighten prop.shafts all the time as well as props. Not sure whats under more strain a shaft a prop or a rudder post. We had one straightened a while back on another boat that was hollow and the prop.guy said it was a piece of cake , his biggest concern was doing any glass damage. I really think people get overly paranoid about them but whatever helps you.....

Speaking only for myself, my post shaft was not damaged (nor was any part of the stern, thank goodness!) in either incident, but in the second one, the rudder shaft itself was bent about 30º. Several people suggested straightening it with a come-along but that it would "weaken" the shaft. The one person who actually has the real chips -- structural engineer, N.A. and retired certified marine surveyor, along with a friend whose background is more informal but who always takes a slightly conservative approach, both said NO WAY -- don't listen to it, don't do it. I'm no expert but know enough about metal to know that they were right.

Unfortunately sometimes people love to take risks with other people's boats. If the boat had been OK for a couple of years they would have been glad to brag about the money they saved me. If the thing failed, they'd say they warned me about that.

Oh yeah. The insurance company said REPLACE IT too. It was a hard enough bang that I had the boat hauled and the stern inspected.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos

Prop repair shops straighten prop.shafts all the time as well as props. Not sure whats under more strain a shaft a prop or a rudder post. We had one straightened a while back on another boat that was hollow and the prop.guy said it was a piece of cake , his biggest concern was doing any glass damage. I really think people get overly paranoid about them but whatever helps you.....

I've never seen a prop shaft bent 30 degrees! And I bet that no prop shop would try to straighten one bent anywhere near that much.

Jim