Best on demand Propane water heaters Australia & NZ?

[Franziska]

Hi,

as far as I am aware of, are Propane instant/on demand water heaters a common and perfectly legal thing in Australia and New Zealand and the US to have on a boat.

Is that correct?

As AUS & NZ are metric and our boat is metric too I like to know which is the most common model (Please be specific with exact model name and manufacturer) used to create instant hot water for one shower (=a small model).

Preferably a unit with maximum safety features and external air intake and exhaust outlet from deck.

What pressure if Propane are these units using down under?

Secondly the question what happens when it gets sent to me to Europe by a friend from down under who purchases it for me and pays all relevant sales taxes locally required.
Can I receive this second hand, but unused piece of equipment?
Will it get blocked by customs over here?
I'd have no issue with paying import tax for it, but as it won't have a CE marking, will they stop it even though it's a private piece of kit?

Of course I would happily sign a paper that I will never ever install it on a boat in Europe.
I just want it as a decorative piece in my office ;-)
Experiences?
Maybe by PM if you do not want to publish them here.

And please, this is not about the suitability of such equipment for onboard use or not.

Europe thinks not, but several other large countries with big marine industries think differently.
Neither am I interested to discuss possible insurance issues which some may see as problematic.


Thanks for pragmatic answers.

[JPA Cate]

Hi, Franziska,

We have a Paloma, an "antique" one, the same model as we had on our first Insatiable. This one was installed by the previous owner in about 1991. It has been in frequent use since then.

I don't know a thing about importing one into Germany. I'd suggest a chat with Customs. People do use them in small apartments, and RVs'. Usually import taxes are based on the cost of the item. (Now, in the US there are "re-shippers". I don't know if there are any in Oz or NZ. Re-shippers put the price you tell them on the pkg. So you might want to consider buying where shipping is free within the US, and let the re-shipper ship it to you according to your instructions.) Some places, if it is for a boat in transit (I don't know your plans), there will be no duty on your package.

If they are actually against the law in your country of boat registration, you may want to bag the idea.

With a cat, you probably want a small one for each shower. And if you want hot water to the galley, as well, you may want water heaters of different capacity, so that you can run one side to both shower and galley, and have the other just for the shower. (I am assuming one shower per hull.)

The shorter the run from the water tank to the heater, the more satisfactory the showering experience is. If you're starting from scratch, you might want to figure out a way to recycle the cold water back to the water tank.

Ann

[Franziska]

Hi Ann,

thanks for your thoughts. Good ideas.
We have just one bathroom and IF we find a way to get one here, we'll mount it in the starboard bow locker just in front of the shower compartment. Short water supply line ensured.
The gas bottle will be in the port side bow locker and also have a remote valve for added safety. Feels better not to have the gas bottle in the same compartment.
Hot water in the galley will continue to come from the kettle :-)

What kind of chimney do you use for the Paloma?

My best girlfriend moved few years ago to Melbourne, I'm sure she can handle the shipping. Might be best to get a slightly used second hand model regarding taxes.
I'll try to find out which model is most popular on boats.

The big question I need to solve is if I can actually get it into the country.
Some goods you may own but are not allowed to use.
We are not in the country where the boat is registered. As it's an old boat, it's unlikely that someone will inspect closely. In any case we will follow all gas installation rules as required for gas installations and if the boat gets sold one day, we can just remove the unit.

The thing which gets me on the current calorifier is the permanent waste of energy. You heat up 40 Liters of water, use 3-5 Liters of them for a brief shower than have 2-3 more showers for next two days and than reheat half of the water again.
As we don't have inboard engines, hot water means running the genset more often which I dislike as well.

Thanks again, have a happy new year!

[chrisr]

for our old boat we brought one of ebay similar to this

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/COUNTRY-...UAAOSwNepcLYpV

very cheap and worked very well. cannot say how long it lasted as we sold boat after about 1 year, but for the price : does it matter ?

cheers,

[Rucksta]

So what's the restriction on mounting propane water heaters inside a boat?

Is it toxic combustion by products, hot exhaust, oxygen depletion?
Good ventilation would take care of that without the need for ducting.

With the auto ignition , no pilot light and auto gas shutoff how is a water heater more dangerous than a gas stove.

[mvweebles]

Good article on propane installation from Steve D. These are of course US standards (ABYC) but may give some good pointers to OP on a safe installation. For example, with few exceptions, all connections to be made in propane locker meaning no tees or even valves inline.

https://www.proboat.com/2016/01/insp...p-gas-systems/

[goboatingnow]

If you are importing into the EU , no one checks for CE compliance . So don’t worry

I’d ensure your insurance company are appraised and they will want the device to meet whatever national product and installations rules apply

In the main in Europe under the RCD , non room sealed gas appliances , other then the cooker , are not legal on boats.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

If you are importing into the EU , no one checks for CE compliance . So don’t worry

I’d ensure your insurance company are appraised and they will want the device to meet whatever national product and installations rules apply

In the main in Europe under the RCD , non room sealed gas appliances , other then the cooker , are not legal on boats.

Note if the boat is CE certified , modifying a gas installation is regarded as a “ major craft modification “ and technically the boat has to be Re-certified , it’s not typically done of course

[Franziska]

Thanks, to you and the others.

The boat is homebuilt before 1996 and has no CE mark therefore.
There is no need to fully CE certify or recertify boats of that age, especially not home built ones but technically these kind of waterheaters are not allowed over here.

Still, yes, if you go by the book you need to recertify gas installations every few years (this is not a CE certification process).

As they are legal to be used in other parts of the world on numerous boats I have no issue ignoring this and put it in anyway.
US, NZ or AUS have equal technical expertise as the EU, and so I have little hesitation to follow their rules even though we are than not 100% in line with our country of origin.

We only have liability insurance anyway and yes, if it goes boom we'd have to face the consequences. (I hope no-one of the "by the book folks" starts an endless discussion now....)

Funny enough, old inboard installations may be kept indefinitely in the EU.

So one way would be to find an old model, mount it and claim it has always been there.

Still, I prefer a modern model with modern safety equipment and a fully closed burning chamber which directly vents exhaust and air intake with a purpose built.
We will install it a safe as possible, it's not mounted in a living area, no gas or fuel storage in that area either. Cut off valve at the bottle.

Thanks, I'll do some more research now.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Note if the boat is CE certified , modifying a gas installation is regarded as a “ major craft modification “ and technically the boat has to be Re-certified , it’s not typically done of course

[foufou]

There are plenty of demand propane heaters on Amazon, made in China and work quite well. Shipped free with Amazon Prime. I have one outside at my house and it works quite well. It requires some minimum water pressure but does not have a chimney fitting though I think one could easily be made. Cost about $150 US. If my memory is ok the brand was Camp Chef but there were many others. Never regretted a shower. F

[Franziska]

Thanks for your reply.

Watch out, these cheap ones are fairly dangerous in the confined spaces of a boat, as the flame can go off when heeling or in a draft or you may have incomplete combustion including risks from carbon monoxide poisoning.

To me a fully enclosed burning chamber with air inlet and exhaust outlet via a chimney seems fairly mandatory on a boat.

Originally Posted by foufou

There are plenty of demand propane heaters on Amazon, made in China and work quite well. Shipped free with Amazon Prime. I have one outside at my house and it works quite well. It requires some minimum water pressure but does not have a chimney fitting though I think one could easily be made. Cost about $150 US. If my memory is ok the brand was Camp Chef but there were many others. Never regretted a shower. F

[Manateeman]

I trust you will include carbon monoxide detectors in your plan.
There was a case in the USA, where a young woman died while taking a shower from CO. I worked for a German corporation and was cautioned about civil litigation as civil actions are different from USA. One of the problems with posting on a public forum is that what you state in your posts can be discovered within any legal process. A maritime attorney can make the most innocent statement appear to be important and damaging. I know, because it was the profession of my father and I watched many court cases. Please carefully consider the worse case scenario. Fire and carbon monoxide detectors are nice but not foolproof.
We have our Espar hydronic in a lazarett which contains nothing to burn. The fuel valve is accessible outside. The compartment has its own power vent, fire and CO detector. It cannot auto start. The hot water has an anti scald valve. The boiler has over temp and over pressure release valves. None of this is inexpensive but I never want to see someone injured on a vessel I built.
Happy trails to you
Captain Mark and his prudent manatee crew

[Cowpoos]

https://challengeyachts.com/water-heater/califonts.html

[JPA Cate]

What kind of chimney do you use for the Paloma?

On our old unit, it is s/s pipe, 4" diameter, with heavy fiberglass insulation at the deck penetration. It is roughy 2 ft. tall (sorry for the English measures). Over the top, outside, is a screw down vent, for passagemaking, and it has worked well to keep water out.

Our propane tanks are in the lazarette, so it is a long run to the shower. We have a solenoid back there to allow the fuel to flow, that has to be switched on, and louvres in the door, so it is well ventilated, even when the port is closed. In the shower, one also has to turn on the gas. Our shower is equipped with a fan, that blows when the water pump is energized. The water and outside temperature seem to affect how much flame one needs to heat the water. Expect to have to fiddle with it a bit, before you know just how to adjust the temperatures for you.


Ann

[Franziska]

Thanks Ann, that sounds like a good setup.

I like the idea to add a watertrap controlled ventilator for the lazarette.

We are after a unit with a fully enclosed burn chamber which means the burning happens essentially outside.
Fully enclosed means it's like a metal box with a venturi type chimney with separate air intake and exhaust. Gastight towards the lazerette where they unit is mounted.

Solenoid at bottle in other hull is planned as well.
The unit will have a separate valve and temperature control built in.

Thanks to all, we will do this in a safe manner or we will not do it.


It's like a

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

On our old unit, it is s/s pipe, 4" diameter, with heavy fiberglass insulation at the deck penetration. It is roughy 2 ft. tall (sorry for the English measures). Over the top, outside, is a screw down vent, for passagemaking, and it has worked well to keep water out.

Our propane tanks are in the lazarette, so it is a long run to the shower. We have a solenoid back there to allow the fuel to flow, that has to be switched on, and louvres in the door, so it is well ventilated, even when the port is closed. In the shower, one also has to turn on the gas. Our shower is equipped with a fan, that blows when the water pump is energized. The water and outside temperature seem to affect how much flame one needs to heat the water. Expect to have to fiddle with it a bit, before you know just how to adjust the temperatures for you.


Ann