Composting toilets or wet sewage systems

[smj]

Originally Posted by David B

For what it is worth, I think two hours to change a hose is a long time. The big hose (the gravity feed dump hose) would be the hardest. On ours, it goes from the bottom of the tank, behind a panel, to a big seacock inside the wash-basin cabinet. So:



Undo the four hose clips and slit the hose ends with a blade - 10 mins max. Pull the hose ends off - under 5 mins.

Pull the hose out - 10 mins max

Insert new hose - 10 mins max

Push onto hose tails (lube and hot water) - 10 mins max

Tighten hose clips - 5 mins max.

Total 50 mins (max).

Now double it (we all know how it goes ...) - 1Hr 40mins.

I suggest the quoted 2 hrs is very realistic.



By the way - we have never had a clog in 7 years, and can see no reason why the next 7 years will be any different.

I did have to take a macerator pump off once:

Undo 4 screws and remove - 2 mins

Check shaft seal and replace - 5 mins

Place pump back in position (give a good wriggle to seat 'O' ring) - 2 mins

Replace screws and tighten - 3 mins

Clean up with disinfectant (only flushing water, but do it right) - 5 mins.

Total - 17 mins (he's probably better at it than me ).

So again, I see not problem with the claimed 15 mins.

Let's see, 7 years with an average of 3 months of use per year, total of 21 months use.
For us, 10 years with a composter average of 6 months of use per year, total 60 months.
Maintenance, changed a 12volt fan, 30 minutes.. ........that's it.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[David B]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Indeed we have and odor free loo, okay it did block once a decade ago and I had to replace the waste pipe. However, I was surprised to find the pipe dry and clean all be it full of a concrete type solid substance.

Perhaps its a cultural thing but there is no way we are having a composting toilet on board in the UK. However, what I am interested in finding out is, when the bucket is full of poo what do you do with it? walk up the marina pontoons to the gents and then what, dump it in a pan? it will block the whole lot up surely?

Into a rubbish bin? what loose or in a plastic bag, we are trying to get rid of plastic bags in Europe.

how does the bucket get cleaned out, with the hose on the pontoon that people also fill the water tanks up with?

Think we will stick with the manual saltwater flush loo for the time being.

Pete

Pete, the "concrete type solid substance" was probably calcification. Urine being acidic (in the morning for most people at least - it can go to 8.0 in the evening), tends to cause the calcium in seawater to come out of solution, and deposit inside the pipes. Simple solution is to use a de-scaler. At the end of each season, I fill the bowl, then part flush, so I know all of the waste pipe is holding the solution. Leave that overnight, and any calcium deposit from the season is dissolved away. Some suggest vinegar, but the acetic acid in vinegar is too weak generally.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by David B

For what it is worth, I think two hours to change a hose is a long time. The big hose (the gravity feed dump hose) would be the hardest. On ours, it goes from the bottom of the tank, behind a panel, to a big seacock inside the wash-basin cabinet. So:

Undo the four hose clips and slit the hose ends with a blade - 10 mins max. Pull the hose ends off - under 5 mins.
Pull the hose out - 10 mins max
Insert new hose - 10 mins max
Push onto hose tails (lube and hot water) - 10 mins max
Tighten hose clips - 5 mins max.
Total 50 mins (max).
Now double it (we all know how it goes ...) - 1Hr 40mins.
I suggest the quoted 2 hrs is very realistic.

By the way - we have never had a clog in 7 years, and can see no reason why the next 7 years will be any different.
I did have to take a macerator pump off once:
Undo 4 screws and remove - 2 mins
Check shaft seal and replace - 5 mins
Place pump back in position (give a good wriggle to seat 'O' ring) - 2 mins
Replace screws and tighten - 3 mins
Clean up with disinfectant (only flushing water, but do it right) - 5 mins.
Total - 17 mins (he's probably better at it than me ).
So again, I see not problem with the claimed 15 mins.

I actually said and meant all of the hoses:

• Inlet water
• head to tank
• tank to Y
• Y to pump out
• Y to discharge pump
• discharge pump to through hull

My family was waiting. I did have a porta-band for the cutting and extra hose (samples for long-term testing). I actually used 5 different hose types. I truth, through they were 15 years old, they were not actually all due. The "required" work would have been 1/3 that. So 5-10 minutes per year, all in. Who cares.



The truth is that both are very simple to manage if you understand them.


Some of the best post have been those explaining what influences the choice for what situation.

[BlackHeron]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Paul, the data means exactly as I already said: it means 24% of respondents report they use a composter. The respondents are all CF users who are interested enough in the topic to even bother clicking and responding, which is a smaller CF sub-set.

I would have thought that 24% figure might even be a bit low. Composting heads are really "hot" right now in forums and it seems every new YouTube channel starting out puts one in before even trying to fix the flush head on the used boats they just bought. There is a lot of marketing going on from Airhead, Nature's Head and the other players pushing them in online advertising and at boat shows.

I've personally seen some really awful conventional marine heads that have been poorly installed or suffered from a severe lack of maintenance (or both.) Many of the boats we looked at in our budget range when were were shopping a few years ago fell into this category. Plus I have worked with a sailing club/school for a few years and did a bunch of lower-budget charters and some of those weren't too pretty either.

There is a lot of "religion" on both sides of the debate. I've used both composting toilets and conventional heads on quite a few different boats as I like to sail everything everyone I know has and because of our sailing club we have a lot of boats to sample from plus we do charters all over the world. I've seen good and bad examples of both types. Both can be horrible if done wrong, and both can be done well. It seems that there are a lot of people out there who absolutely believe with certainty that a flush head will always stink and it should be a no-brainer to just get rid of the "old-fashioned" marine head in any boat someone buys before even trying to clean up and re-commission the existing equipment that came with the boat. That's the marketing hype from the manufacturers, and I think a lot of people have swallowed that hype lock, stock, and bucket.

[David B]

Originally Posted by smj

Let's see, 7 years with an average of 3 months of use per year, total of 21 months use.
For us, 10 years with a composter average of 6 months of use per year, total 60 months.
Maintenance, changed a 12volt fan, 30 minutes.. ........that's it.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

That's fine, but we have yet to change any hoses, as you will see from a previous post. And also (from a previous post, each season I give them a squeeze to see if they are hardening - don't expect to be changing hoses anytime soon.

This discussion is again getting petty (and I have not mentioned the 'Z' word). I am simply pointing out that the original times quoted for maintenance are very realistic.

We could start talking about the time involved in preparing media, emptying bottles of urine, buying more media, preparing it etc, etc, etc.
Let's just accept that each have their own perspective and each from that, have their own preferences. For me, I'll just stick with pushing a flush button. Is that OK?

[David B]

Originally Posted by thinwater

I actually said and meant all of the hoses:

• Inlet water
• head to tank
• tank to Y
• Y to pump out
• Y to discharge pump
• discharge pump to through hull

My family was waiting. I did have a porta-band for the cutting and extra hose (samples for long-term testing). I actually used 5 different hose types. I truth, through they were 15 years old, they were not actually all due. The "required" work would have been 1/3 that. So 5-10 minutes per year, all in. Who cares.



The truth is that both are very simple to manage if you understand them.


Some of the best post have been those explaining what influences the choice for what situation.

You are even quicker then - certainly 2 hours is not an unrealistic claim as someone has suggested. I have learnt something too - had to look up what a 'portaband' is. On that note, a Multitool with a half-disc blade is also good (I use a Bosch 10.8V version), and very safe.

For the record, our hoses (and to do them all would take me more than two hours for sure, but I cannot see ever having to do them all):

Flushwater - seacock to line strainer
Flushwater - line strainer to heads pump
Wastewater - to holding tank
Wastewater - holding tank to deck pump-out fitting
Wastewater - holding tank gravity dump to seacock
Vent - holding tank to hull side-vent

[smj]

Originally Posted by David B

That's fine, but we have yet to change any hoses, as you will see from a previous post. And also (from a previous post, each season I give them a squeeze to see if they are hardening - don't expect to be changing hoses anytime soon.



This discussion is again getting petty (and I have not mentioned the 'Z' word). I am simply pointing out that the original times quoted for maintenance are very realistic.



We could start talking about the time involved in preparing media, emptying bottles of urine, buying more media, preparing it etc, etc, etc.

Let's just accept that each have their own perspective and each from that, have their own preferences. For me, I'll just stick with pushing a flush button. Is that OK?

So you made a long post about how long it would take you to change a hose yet you’ve never done it?
You also talk about the time involved in preparing media emptying urine bottles etc. yet you’ve never done it?
Sounds like you have zero experience with composting heads and very limited experience with the traditional Marine head setup. So how can you make a true educational decision on which would actually be the better system for you?
I’ve got no problem with you using the system you use and respect your choice, but maybe you should refrain from speaking about something which you have no experience with.

[tomfl]

Just a few random thoughts.

I bought SMJ's old boat with a composting head. After less than a year the fan went out. Since I suffer from OCD I replaced the small 50mm computer fan with a 90mm one. I bought 10 of them on ebay for $US12 and gave three to Josh who bought SMJ's really old boat with the same composting head. Probably took me an afternoon to replace the fan not the 30 minutes speed demons like SMJ can do. Since I am a male single hander I get more than a couple of months between dumping; in part because I use the sugarscoop to relieve my self and try and find heads elsewhere when possible. My impression is that running a bigger fan 24/7 is one of the keys to success. As anyone who has been to third world countries knows in many places you do not put toilet paper in a toilet. In Mexico there are small waste baskets by the toilet where toilet paper goes; same on my boat. This also helps increase time between dumping. I do add cedar chips at times but only because I bought some after reading about it here. Have not noticed it makes any difference. No idea how many boats I have been on with all types of heads. I have to say mine has less odor than any boat I can remember. And I have been on a lot of boats with conventional heads that smelled so bad I was shocked. Way back in the 1950s I started sailing on my Dad's boats and even back then when heads dumped directly in the ocean every time you used them they normally smelled and were a PITA to maintain. While there have been improvements in modern heads the light weight and easy to maintain aspect of composting heads has made me a believer. On long cruises I have a five gallon bucket I can put two garbage bags of head dumping in and put the lid on to store.

Count me a happy camper with my composting head.

[smj]

Originally Posted by tomfl

Just a few random thoughts.



I bought SMJ's old boat with a composting head. After less than a year the fan went out. Since I suffer from OCD I replaced the small 50mm computer fan with a 90mm one. I bought 10 of them on ebay for $US12 and gave three to Josh who bought SMJ's really old boat with the same composting head. Probably took me an afternoon to replace the fan not the 30 minutes speed demons like SMJ can do. Since I am a male single hander I get more than a couple of months between dumping; in part because I use the sugarscoop to relieve my self and try and find heads elsewhere when possible. My impression is that running a bigger fan 24/7 is one of the keys to success. As anyone who has been to third world countries knows in many places you do not put toilet paper in a toilet. In Mexico there are small waste baskets by the toilet where toilet paper goes; same on my boat. This also helps increase time between dumping. I do add cedar chips at times but only because I bought some after reading about it here. Have not noticed it makes any difference. No idea how many boats I have been on with all types of heads. I have to say mine has less odor than any boat I can remember. And I have been on a lot of boats with conventional heads that smelled so bad I was shocked. Way back in the 1950s I started sailing on my Dad's boats and even back then when heads dumped directly in the ocean every time you used them they normally smelled and were a PITA to maintain. While there have been improvements in modern heads the light weight and easy to maintain aspect of composting heads has made me a believer. On long cruises I have a five gallon bucket I can put two garbage bags of head dumping in and put the lid on to store.



Count me a happy camper with my composting head.

And it was your boat that I replaced the fan on!
Are you happy you never had to search for a pump out station?

[David B]

Originally Posted by smj

So you made a long post about how long it would take you to change a hose yet you’ve never done it?
You also talk about the time involved in preparing media emptying urine bottles etc. yet you’ve never done it?
Sounds like you have zero experience with composting heads and very limited experience with the traditional Marine head setup. So how can you make a true educational decision on which would actually be the better system for you?
I’ve got no problem with you using the system you use and respect your choice, but maybe you should refrain from speaking about something which you have no experience with.

Oh for goodness sake man!!!

I have been on this planet for 65 years - in that time, I have changed a hose or two, stripped and re-built an engine or two, wired a boat or two .....

Believe it or not, all of that experience, combined with a good technical knowledge of our current boat, gives me a very good database upon which to call when estimating a job (people actually do this sort of thing for a living you know - ever asked anyone to quote you on doing a job?)

And also, the current job is to complete the installation of a grey-water holding tank. That means hoses, that means hose clamps, hose tails, ball valves, sea-cocks, barrel unions and Tee pieces.

Very little experience? Give me a break!!!

Talk about being petty !!!

[smj]

Originally Posted by David B

Oh for goodness sake man!!!



I have been on this planet for 65 years - in that time, I have changed a hose or two, stripped and re-built an engine or two, wired a boat or two .....



Believe it or not, all of that experience, combined with a good technical knowledge of our current boat, gives me a very good database upon which to call when estimating a job (people actually do this sort of thing for a living you know - ever asked anyone to quote you on doing a job?)



And also, the current job is to complete the installation of a grey-water holding tank. That means hoses, that means hose clamps, hose tails, ball valves, sea-cocks, barrel unions and Tee pieces.



Very little experience? Give me a break!!!



Talk about being petty !!!

You have absolutely zero experience with composting heads and obviously no experience with changing the hoses on your current boat, though you did give a long winded post on how long it takes you. Talk about what you know.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by BlackHeron

I would have thought that 24% figure might even be a bit low. Composting heads are really "hot" right now in forums and it seems every new YouTube channel starting out puts one in before even trying to fix the flush head on the used boats they just bought. There is a lot of marketing going on from Airhead, Nature's Head and the other players pushing them in online advertising and at boat shows.

Interesting … I’m unaware of the level of hype, but then I’m unaware of most of that kind of marketing stuff. I was honestly surprised that at the 24% number. My best guess would have put the number at 10% — at the most. But then, I have little idea what most boats are using in the real world. I dunno about you, but it’s just not a topic of common conversation for me in my boating world.

I have predicted we will see an increase in the number of cruising boats who use a composting head. I predict this b/c I believe it is just a better head for anyone who cruises on a smallish boat with a smallish crew. But this is only my opinion, and I fully accept that I may be wrong. Time will tell...

You say there’s a lot of religion on both sides. I suppose that’s one way to put it. I do see too many people building up their choices by putting down others. And then there’s the few who insist on spreading inaccurate information based on little or no actual experience.

Whatever one thinks about marine heads, the fact is both dry and wet systems can work just fine. As I’ve said every time this discussion happens, I have zero issue with anyone preferring one over the other. As long as they are managed properly, then use what works for you.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by smj

And it was your boat that I replaced the fan on!
Are you happy you never had to search for a pump out station?

I was happier that the pump out boat never bashed into my boat when it was making it's rounds in BKH.

Are you still there and how crowded is it.

[BlackHeron]

A battery-powered porta-band is a slick piece of equipment. I did a 3-month short-call stint with an electrical shop a couple of years back where they used them for almost everything. Every electrician was issued one and nobody even used a hacksaw. I still prefer to use a hacksaw though.

For most marine hose that doesn't have a wire coil inside,I have found that a simple PVC pipe cutter does the job quicker and cleaner with less trouble -no rubber or vinyl dust getting everywhere, especially into the bilge to plug the pump. Keep the blade sharp (no nicks) by touching it up when it needs it and this is the slick tool to have aboard for these types of jobs.

[smj]

Originally Posted by tomfl

I was happier that the pump out boat never bashed into my boat when it was making it's rounds in BKH.



Are you still there and how crowded is it.

Still here and a slow year. No pump out boats bashing our hull. The marina manager here loves composting heads[emoji16]