CoolBlue - is it worth the extra $$$

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by missourisailor

5~6 amp draw x 20 hours is how much.

Yes that is about where I am as well, I figure though in Summer I am closer to the 120 and cooler weather, closer to the 100, so I just say more than 100, cause I really don't know.
Give Rich a call, but if your an older IP 38 like I am, I think first 14 cu ft is BIG, real BIG, and we need better insulation, I plan on getting there by putting more inside of the box, making it smaller too.
Right answer I'm sure is tear the thing out and build a super insulated box. Maybe one day, but not this day

Now what was a joke was the AB Super Cold machine that was in my boat when I got her, that was the classic send a boy to do a mans job as it was way over taxed, it ran and never stopped, yet the box never got cold either

[missourisailor]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

but if your an older IP 38 like I am, I think first 14 cu ft is BIG, r

One model down. Same age.
A Prev, prev, PO installed the extra insulation and Cool blue unit too (I think). Picture documentation on one of the IP sites. Your know it cause a kids head is sticking out of the fridge/freezer opening.

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by ErikFinn

Thank you very much for your lengthy reply Mr. Boren, Rich, much appreciated and always a pleasure to learn more. And I do like your system. I should have replied earlier but.. Anyways, something I think I discovered unless I'm mistaken:
I understand one performance factor to take into account when comparing compressor performances is the displacement:
Secop BD35F: 2.00 cm3
Secop BD50F: 2.50 cm3
Secop BD80F: 3.00 cm3
Cubigel GD30FDC: 3.00 cm3

Of course there are other factors as well but would it be fair to say that the current CoolBlue compressor (Cubigel GD30FDC) is more in par with the Secop BD80F than the BD50F in terms of BTU output potential?

I think I earlier got the idea that the GD30FSC was similar to BD35F as the earlier CoolBlues used the BD35F?

Thanks,

Erik

Bingo...you nailed it Erik...

But as you mentioned there are also other factors (like evaporation temp) that come into play when accessing the overall BTU capacity from a compressor. To be completely honest with you, one of the reasons I don't really hype/push the above data (but it is in our Manual for Techy folks like you to see) is because most people just don't understand it or the related data and I could easily see Cruise and Chat room rumors running wild with data.

[[As a side note, back when Technautics was using the Danfoss Compressors we were always using the BD50s just for clarification. The confusion comes in that physically there is no external appearance difference between the BD35 and BD50 and even the BD80...the compressors all have the same external hermetically identical bodies.]]

[missourisailor]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

Got it...I can't relate the Forum name to the client name.
But keep me updated and when you get back to the boat give me a call and we can talk about adjusting the expansion valve. To do that you will need to have a charge hose with a low pressure gauge on it.

Will do.
Was actually planing on it.
This trip, as we are taking one of the trucks, so I'll be bringing all of my refrigeration eq.. So if need be, I will be able to evacuate the system.
That is if the Admiral lets me shut it down.

I was going to give you a call next week, but I'll ask now.
Do you have any expansion valves and screens there?
Price?
I'd like to have them on hand incase needed.

Lastly, most likely won't be much help, but I did find the photo albums of the P.P.PO installing the extra insulation.
Adding Insulation & Technautics
and
Insulation & Technautics 2

[SV THIRD DAY]

It's hard for me to see from the photo, but if that is just plain styrofoam, I sure wish they would have used something with a better R-valve. They started with pretty much no real insulation with the original Box and then added something pretty poor...so yes it's better than nothing...but...

In terms of the TXV...
I'll bet that there is nothing wrong with it just from experience the chances of a TXV failing are so slim that it's a waste of money to carry one as a spare. My guess is that It's either a low on charge issue (look for bubbles in the sight glass) or an insulation issue.

Send me an email at Rich@CruiseROWater.com and I'll email you back the pricing.

In the mean time, take a look at our YouTube Video on how to troubleshoot and Recharge your CoolBlue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1525Hlg380Y

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

Not sure why the false assumption that a Holding Plate system can't get to 0-degs...mine's running there now along with plenty of our clients cruising the seven seas. Could be be another cruising myth?

The false assumption is you implying I said it couldn't get to 0 degrees. It can but not not efficiently. Now if you care to cut the BS I'd be glad to prove it. Salesmen claiming a product can defy the laws of physics based on unsubstantiated anecdotal example really leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

The false assumption is you implying I said it couldn't get to 0 degrees. It can but not not efficiently. Now if you care to cut the BS I'd be glad to prove it. Salesmen claiming a product can defy the laws of physics based on unsubstantiated anecdotal example really leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Fire away amigo....lets have a little fun today.

But what you said was pretty clear:

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

I guess if you don't mind setting your freezer well above 0 degrees you could get by with a holding plate system. Not something I would do but YMMV. When comparing lets stick with 0 degrees for both system to do an apples to apples comparison.

The clear implication was that a holding plate system couldn't get as cold as a thin rolled aluminum evaporation plate, as if there was some design limitation, which is simply false.

The laws of physics are pretty easy and don't change from 10-degs F to 0-degs F. If you want Zero degrees in your freezer, you just turn the thermostat down, just like any system on the market. Most marine refrigeration systems target a freezer temp of single digits and not zero. Not because 0-degs can't be done, but because of the laws of Physics and the temperature differential between the Evaporator running on R134a and Box temps. If a Client of any systems isn't happy with 7degs F and thinks they really need Zero-degs F...sure...spend the extra power on either system, what's the rub here?

The Standard temp differential between the evaporator (doesn't matter holding plate of aluminum then evap plate) is 10-degs F. So if you want a Zero-deg temp in your Box, easy...just set the thermostat for your evaporator to maintain at least a -10 degs F Temp...bingo...done.

Now lets look at some Freezer Box temp Comparisons with a holding Plate vs Thin Rolled Aluminum evaporators. I posted this earlier in the thread, but someone could have missed it. Note the temp range, highs and lows. Test Conditions: .9CF freezer Box with a AB CU200 vs 2.1CF CoolBlue freezer. 70 degs ambient temp, R30 insulation box. Spill over Refrigerator is the stanard 7CF total test Box.

Originally Posted by Real Life Data

Holding Plate Freezer Temps:

Aluminum Evaporator Freezer Temps:

The data is pretty clear and if you want the Holding Plate freezer to be colder, just turn down the thermostat and lower the top end cut-on compressor temp, which will increase the compressor run frequency of course. But in comparison to the standard AB Super Cold Machine Box...well you can see it for yourself. You can see the temp rise on the top graph, so if you have the compressor kick back on and cool the plate back down you can indeed keep your freezer box at or even below Zero if that is what you want. As a comparison, your standard AB CU200 cold machine freezer box doesn't come close.

Now excuse me while I go take my frozen Haagan-daz ice cream out of my freezer so it can soften up for me to eat it for lunch...

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

Fire away amigo....lets have a little fun today.

But what you said was pretty clear:



The clear implication was that a holding plate system couldn't get as cold as a thin rolled aluminum evaporation plate, as if there was some design limitation, which is simply false. Now excuse me while I go take my frozen Haagan-daz ice cream out of my freezer so it can soften up for me to eat it for lunch...

The laws of physics are pretty easy and don't change from 10-degs F to 0-degs F. If you want Zero degrees in your freezer, you just turn the thermostat down, just like any system on the market. Most marine refrigeration systems target a freezer temp of single digits and not zero. Not because 0-degs can't be done, but because of the laws of Physics and the temperature differential between the Evaporator running on R134a and Box temps. The Standard temp differential between the evaporator (doesn't matter holding plate of aluminum then evap plate) is 10-degs F. So if you want a Zero-deg temp in your Box, easy...just set the thermostat for your evaporator to maintain at least a -10 degs F Temp...bingo...done.

The smoke was cleared for those that want to see. Cary on with your full blown infomercial. A holding plate system is VERY inefficient. I wonder if that's why you start with "add more insulation" as if that would only help a holding plate system. Of course not, you know your systems need more insulation to make up for the inefficiencies. As I said before along with others here, it only makes sense if you have excess energy during part of the day to store for later use. It's unfortunate you see fit to throw a tantrum when confronted, but that doesn't surprise me given your marketing strategy.

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

The smoke was cleared for those that want to see. Cary on with your full blown infomercial. A holding plate system is VERY inefficient. I wonder if that's why you start with "add more insulation" as if that would only help a holding plate system. Of course not, you know your systems need more insulation to make up for the inefficiencies. As I said before along with others here, it only makes sense if you have excess energy during part of the day to store for later use. It's unfortunate you see fit to throw a tantrum when confronted, but that doesn't surprise me given your marketing strategy.

I guess giving Data is now throwing a fit or tantrum...but that's the world we live in today folks. Rational discussion in the Donald Trump Hilary Clinton world is given way to personal attacks and name calling.

Some myths and incorrect statement are thrown out about holding plates. (that they can't keep a freezer at 0-degs)
I then spend the time to refute the incorrect statements with data and points (no personal attacks or calling their mother names).
Some then come back after seeing the data and take personal shots at me but totally ignore the data. They basically throw out a "Your Mamma" as their argument.

It doesn't bother me at all honestly, because in the process I was able to educate those that really wanted to be educated, rather than get into some pointless "he said, She said" debate that is completely devoid of data and science. For those that want to look over the real life data, you can see the temperature profiles and get a better understanding of how things work than before the thread started, so to me that is what matters.

Its the risk you take as a manufacturer if you decide to put yourself out there and participate in public online chat forums. Every Marketing and Public Relations firm in the world tells you not to do it. Don't answer questions and give data on a public site, but being a liveaboard cruiser myself, I don't honestly give a rats ass about "the rules" or what the experts say I should or shouldn't do. My rule is that I share anchorages with cruisers with my systems so weather it be a water maker or refrigeration system it had damn better do what it is advertised to do. You don't sell 25-30 water makers and 20-25 CoolBlue refrigeration units per month all the while maintaining the best customer service reputation in the business by peddling snake oil and selling promises.

If you have any follow-up questions I'm always happy to help, heck, with my teak deck project I have going at the moment, I'm also more than happy to catch and toss back spitballs your way, that's fun too at times.

[missourisailor]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

It's hard for me to see from the photo, but if that is just plain styrofoam, I sure wish they would have used something with a better R-valve. They started with pretty much no real insulation with the original Box and then added something pretty poor...so yes it's better than nothing...but...

In terms of the TXV...
I'll bet that there is nothing wrong with it just from experience the chances of a TXV failing are so slim that it's a waste of money to carry one as a spare. My guess is that It's either a low on charge issue (look for bubbles in the sight glass) or an insulation issue.

Yeah I know it's not the best, but I have to play the hand that I'm dealt.
I'm with A64, new insulation is not going to happen in the near future.

The system was serviced a month or two ago. A contractor did it as I did not have any servicing eq with me. I also could not get my head down to see the sight glass (sinus infection).

He did add 134A but did not know how much. I guess I'm one of the few whom weighs bottles.
Found evidence of leaks around the Schroeder <sp> valves. Now a bubble passes about every two or three minutes.

Before the evaporator temp had risen to about 20F.
After the service, was able to get to mid singles in about 10 hours (with an empty box). A day or so later, I saw the set point temp (-2F). But the box had been refilled by then. But as I said in our phone conversation, this is the evaporator temp. I don't know what the box temp is. The remote temp probe and IR camera are already packed.

What I do know is that it will make hard ice and will keep ice cream some what hard. But it will not refreeze ice cream.

I'm somewhat okay with the operation as it is now. But the duty cycle is a bit much. If I can get down to 60~70 Ah's, I'd be a happy camper errr happy sailor>

I don't know the history of this system. Nor do I know what has been done to it or if/how many times it's been serviced.

II do know that when it is running, with a full box, the evap temp will modulate between +5F and -1F for the whole cycle before finally hitting the set point. I have seen it cycle during the day (outside temp around 90F), but most of the time it is at night.
Which is telling me that I have more of an insulation problem than I want to admit.

But the fluctuation is what is leading me to think that the expansion valve or it's strainer is/are not 100% right.

[Laughing Buddha]

Help me read/reread the 2 data sets. (BTW, thanks for bringing it.)
As I read the holding plate data, the temp cycles from (about) -5 and +12.
The roll-bond cycles between +6 and +26.
Have I got that right?

And now another few questions relating directly to the charts:
The holding plate system cycled on 4 times in a 24 hour period. It appears to have run for about an hour and 10 minutes ~ 70 minutes or so, a total run time during 24hrs 280 minutes - give or take. So, how many amp hours in that day? Can we assume the box never got much above +12; at least never to 20 degrees?
It is difficult to read how long the rollbond condensor system ran for each pull-down, but the same question, how many amphours in the 24 hour period?

A question or2 about the test:

The test items were different volumes, the holding plate box being a bit over twice the volume of the roll-bond box, and therefore a larger capacity for stores,and more useful to cruisers - yet still small-ish. From this test data, can you predict the performance of an equalsize 2.1cF freezer with a roll-bond condensor?

And now, a message of food storage:
This from the University of Nebraska; "Keep your freezer at zero degrees (0°) or below to maintain the quality of frozen foods. Most foods will maintain good quality longer if the freezer temperature is -10 to -20°F. At temperatures between 0 and 32°F, food deteriorates more rapidly."

When looking at 30 day+ passages, a cold freezer ensures better food throughout the trip.

The alternative is follow in your grandmother's footsteps and do some pressure canning pre departure. No freezer required. It is glass storage, but a different non-amp hour solution. If you have the gear onboard, you can can (that's funny) your freezer products when/if it goes down. [Ask me how I know that!]

Cheers - Jim

[SV THIRD DAY]

If you have a low pressure gauge, then we can check to see how your TXV is doing BUT the test will only be valid and give us useful data if the system charge is right. If you are only seeing a small bubble periodically, then that sure sounds "normal" to me.

The system should have a low pressure side reading of between 0-5PSI. With 2-3 being perfect if your are a guy like me that likes to teak things just right.

If your TXV is set too closed, your compressor could be sucking the system negative, so you need to open up the TXV a little to get more refrigerant an thus more BTU removal.

If your TXV is set too open, then your compressor could be having a hard time sucking down the system and you will find your Pressure up at 8-15psi. So you could need to close down your TXV a little.

Now here is the KEY. Before you start tweaking the TXV set-point, MARK your starting point and then only make the changes in 90-deg turns and keep track of how many you make. Allow at LEAST 4hrs for any change to stabilize. Messing with the TXV is how lots of people get into trouble because they don't have patience and try to go too fast. So relax and go it SLOW with only 90-degs turns at a time.

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by Laughing Buddha

Help me read/reread the 2 data sets. (BTW, thanks for bringing it.)
As I read the holding plate data, the temp cycles from (about) -5 and +12.
The roll-bond cycles between +6 and +26.
Have I got that right?

And now another few questions relating directly to the charts:
The holding plate system cycled on 4 times in a 24 hour period. It appears to have run for about an hour and 10 minutes ~ 70 minutes or so, a total run time during 24hrs 280 minutes - give or take. So, how many amp hours in that day? Can we assume the box never got much above +12; at least never to 20 degrees?
It is difficult to read how long the rollbond condensor system ran for each pull-down, but the same question, how many amphours in the 24 hour period?

A question or2 about the test:

The test items were different volumes, the holding plate box being a bit over twice the volume of the roll-bond box, and therefore a larger capacity for stores,and more useful to cruisers - yet still small-ish. From this test data, can you predict the performance of an equalsize 2.1cF freezer with a roll-bond condensor?

And now, a message of food storage:
This from the University of Nebraska; "Keep your freezer at zero degrees (0°) or below to maintain the quality of frozen foods. Most foods will maintain good quality longer if the freezer temperature is -10 to -20°F. At temperatures between 0 and 32°F, food deteriorates more rapidly."

When looking at 30 day+ passages, a cold freezer ensures better food throughout the trip.

The alternative is follow in your grandmother's footsteps and do some pressure canning pre departure. No freezer required. It is glass storage, but a different non-amp hour solution. If you have the gear onboard, you can can (that's funny) your freezer products when/if it goes down. [Ask me how I know that!]

Cheers - Jim

Hey Jim
You got the temp readings and range correct as the high and lows.

For the Box sizes, the reason there was a difference in the Freezer Cubic foot volume is that we took a 7CF test Box with R-30 and then set the system up with our standard 1/3 Freezer and 2/3 Refrigerator compartment for our system. Then for the AB Cold Machine we put their standard rolled evaporation Box "Bin" into the 7CF Box. So while I only showed the freezer temps the system was also maintaining the remainder of the 7CF box as a refrigerator.

The numbers and game changes if you only run this as a dedicated Freezer Box, but that just isn't the normal cruiser who has a dedicated Freezer and Refrigerator box. So we ran this test in the more standard spill-over set-up.

The temps show the actual Box temp, so our box didn't get above the shown +12.

In terms of power usage, the CoolBlue system used 24Amp hours per day. (the average of a 4 day test run). The AB system used Double the power at 47Amp hours per day (same 4day average).

The box was loaded with standard cruiser type foods.

In terms of food storage temps.
There is a sliding time scale where the lower and even more degrees below zero storage will keep food fresher longer. But boat Freezers are not Home freezers where power usage doesn't matter. A sub 10-degs F freezer box will easily keep chicken/fish/steaks for months at a time. But will it keep well for 2yrs like your home freezer...No. So you trade some long term freezer storage for power usage. If this isn't acceptable to you, then the easily solution is to turn the dial on your thermostat down and have the system kick back on when the box hits Zero, but you will use more power. You can also lower the hysteresis of the system (the high and low band) by using an electronic thermostat where those values are settable rather than just a dial. For dedicated deep freezers we usually recommend going with a dual holding plate system so that the heat uptake from the Box is more even and it lets you more easily hit the lower dedicated freezer temps.

Check out the freezer temp data per CF for per ambient temp per system model from all the different Box conversion manufacturers and you may not be surprised that most even if they have it, won't give it to you. Why...here is the problem:

[multihullnz]

Update. After 3 months cruising in the tropics, including crossing the equator. I can report that the cool blue system performed as advertised. Draws about 5amps when running. Runs for a 2-3 hours a day. On passage from Tahiti to Hawaii, kept meat pretty well frozen at the bottom of the fridge for 6 days. Will put ice crystals in your beer!

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by multihullnz

Update. After 3 months cruising in the tropics, including crossing the equator. I can report that the cool blue system performed as advertised. Draws about 5amps when running. Runs for a 2-3 hours a day. On passage from Tahiti to Hawaii, kept meat pretty well frozen at the bottom of the fridge for 6 days. Will put ice crystals in your beer!

You must have a hell of lot of insulation on a small fridge to use only 10 to 15 amp hrs a day in the tropics. Sounds too good to be true.