Copper Tube for Propane

[sailvayu]

john
lol ok I will give you that one 10-15 min is likely fine I normally will do that then go off and do something else for awhile then check back later. I just like to know it is not leaking but you are right there could be some bleed down without much leakage. This has been a good discussion I think we tend to forget about systems like this as long as they seem to be working fine. I know I do, so as soon as the weather permits I plan to just go over my system again even though I just replaced the hose 2 years ago.

Fair Winds

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by cal40john

Not fair. You regularly cite ABYC then give hours for a leak check. My understanding is that ABYC says to wait 3 minutes to do the leak check. The local propane guru shop recommends 10-15 minutes, just to be extra safe. Now we're up to hours.
John

Typical shoreside test pressures must be about eight times working pressure (3 psig?), and test duration may be as little as ten minutes for single family residences.

The ten minute test allows time for the inspector to go for “a drink”, generally with the installer.

sailvayu was going for a beer, which come in sixes (smallest packaging); whereas your local propane guru drinks shooters.

[sailvayu]

Gord
Damn you got me lol

Fair Winds

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by mesquaukee

Whether you use certified hose or copper tubing (depending on the jurisdiction) there will always be a chance of failure. Even gas sniffers will fail due to faulty wiring etc.

Should a leak occur the amount of gas that could possibly leak out needs to be minimized since for an explosion to occur the ratio of gas to air has to reach a minimum threshold.
Minimizing the length of hose or tubing after the shutoff valve would minimize the volume of gas that could escape. This would mean running the line on the exterior of the boat to as close as possible to the cook stove, mount a shutoff valve, then lead it inside.
A few feet of line holds so little gas that it is unlikely that the ratio of gas to air could ever reach the explosive limit.

Nothing beats frequent inspections of the lines and fittings and periodically testing for leaks.

I could be wrong on this one, but I think I read that currently manufactured boats are recommended to have the propane hose in a gas tight run until it reaches the appliance that vents overboard. You can add all the safety measures you want and still not be safe. An article by a Gemini owner had a near catastrophe that was caused by the run, a fiberglass box/tube with the hull as one side had popped loose from the hull. So she had two failures, the hose was leaking and the run that was supposed to vent it overboard had failed.

John

[beneteau-500]

if i may come in at this point of this thread i have seen some good recommendations and some poor ones here in the uk I am what you call a Gas Safe engineer who is Authorised , to carry out gas appliance/ pipe work on yachts and any other form of leisure vehicle . on Yachts i do not like fitting ridged copper pipe i prefer stainless steel trac pipe . but i would like to recomend a web site for all those interested of which i have nothing to do with this company in the uk but it lists all you need to know Calor Marine Shop and click on Installing marine gas this should give you all a insight on standards and what is best to use .

[off-the-grid]

Ok...ok..ok!

I'm replacing it, but with all the flip flopping I don't know with what. Probably rubber hose.

Someone stated that the rubber will harden after a few years and sometimes develops leaks at the fitting. Can this be minimized by securing the hose in the locker to restrict movement?

BTW - I do already have a separate shutoff to each appliance, and a brand new solenoid, control panel, and a sensor down in each hull. And I've even done a leak test. This is just the last piece of the system that I haven't touched yet.

[Morganministry]

That was me talking about the hose hardening. That was with the hoses purchased at the local propane dealers. I don't know if there is a "marine" grade hose or not. Or if they clamp the fittings on a different way. The failure I get with these hoses is where the hose is clamped to the fitting. It is useually one of those pressed on clamps. Again, I haven't had any experience with propane on boats, this is just general experience. And you would be better off asking this question to people who install propane systems on boats.

Scott

[James S]

Originally Posted by grunzster

Ok...ok..ok!

I'm replacing it, but with all the flip flopping I don't know with what. Probably rubber hose.

Someone stated that the rubber will harden after a few years and sometimes develops leaks at the fitting. Can this be minimized by securing the hose in the locker to restrict movement?

BTW - I do already have a separate shutoff to each appliance, and a brand new solenoid, control panel, and a sensor down in each hull. And I've even done a leak test. This is just the last piece of the system that I haven't touched yet.

Did you read any of the links...It looks to me like copper is the way to go if you're going through any bulkheads...also several of the links note a maximum length of rubber,,,and its not much.
IMO if the copper is secured reasonably well, work hardening is just not going to happen....there is no way your boat flexes that much.

If you haven't yet done it, read some of the links.

http://www.icomia.com/technical-info...%202%20LPG.pdf

http://www.esv.vic.gov.au/Portals/0/...nApril2004.pdf

[anjou]

Did you lknow
Natural gas hose and LPG hose are different. You must use LPG hose because LPG contains certain elements that cause disintegration of natural gas hose.

In the UK, for domestic and commercial use, all this is strictly regulated by British STandards and the governing gas registration body, Gas Safe, AND in the case of boats on inland waterways, Brit Waterways. The Board of Trade is regulated for marine vessels.

They all enforce rules governing safety critical materials used in homes, offices, boats, caravans etc and for good reason.
There have been many deaths over the decades and we progress with hindsight.

[neelie]

Originally Posted by beneteau-500

if i may come in at this point of this thread i have seen some good recommendations and some poor ones here in the uk I am what you call a Gas Safe engineer who is Authorised , to carry out gas appliance/ pipe work on yachts and any other form of leisure vehicle . on Yachts i do not like fitting ridged copper pipe i prefer stainless steel trac pipe . but i would like to recomend a web site for all those interested of which i have nothing to do with this company in the uk but it lists all you need to know Calor Marine Shop and click on Installing marine gas this should give you all a insight on standards and what is best to use .

Thanks for the link, but it does not seem to work.

What exactly is ridged copper pipe? How do I know if I have it?

My boat was built in the UK and I presume outfitted to UK standards, it has copper pipe which is securely mounted and with no apparent room to move and work harden.

15 posts ago, I was convinced to change over to rubber, now I'm not so sure anymore. It seems that if there is no agreement by the various regulatory authorities as to the better choice of material, then its still open to conjecture.

Unless in the next few posts someone chimes in and states that Unobtanium 211 is the new miracle pipe material, I'll stick to copper.

I do leak and condition checks on a monthly basis, I also have a sniffer with auto shutoff. In the end it comes down to the individual deciding what is an acceptable risk and making an informed decision. One "advantage" of copper is that corrosion, kinking and superficial damage is easier to see than on black rubber hose.

ps.. thanks to everyone for posting - this has been a most informative and thought provoking thread.

[Joli]

Copper flexes and fatigues, hose degrades. Use due diligence.

[s/v Jedi]

So, let's say you use copper and use mounting points every feet. How do you know that those 1-foot sections don't vibrate when under way using the engine? Did you check that?

When you remove the old stuff, bend such a section and see if it has work hardened or not. I think it will but then again, I have been surprised before.

The nice thing with rubber hose is that you don't need to see if there is corrosion because it does not corrode. Same for kinking, it can't kink because you put it in and fasten it every foot or so, right? Superficial damage is just as easy to see on hose I think, why do you think it's easier with pipe?

But anyway, I can tell you that the rubber high-pressure hose aboard Jedi was installed in 1993 and is still in good condition today. I am replacing it as a preventative measure now. That is 17 years and I am convinced that copper wouldn't have fared that well.

cheers,
Nick.

[James S]

The copper tubing used on my Hydraulic steering was in place and still working since 1978...it was not fastened every foot and subject to pressures far greater than the LPG would have...not to mention the hydraulic shock.

[neelie]

s/v jedi : You're 100% correct about the vibration and worse still, I have no way of easily seeing whats going on in about 50% of the pipe run.

My comment about copper being advantageous was tongue in cheek - based on the fact that corrodes!.. and I really can't defend it.

Given that the different regulatory bodies have differing recommendations, I really have no idea which material to choose. For now, I've decided, to stay with copper until a leak test fails, then I'll consider a change.

(Of course, I could have simply replied that work hardening is not an issue because Cats don't vibrate under power - triggering the usual avalanche of hate posts..)

Nevertheless, this thread has been most enlightening. And with more navel gazing, I may yet change my mind next week and convert to rubber.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by grunzster

I'm getting SO sick of propane! Not propane it's self, but the ridiculously varying opinions. You talk to one person and they think it's the safest thing in the world. You talk to someone else, and having it on board in any shape or form, following all regulations and safety procedures, and you're boat is still going to blow up.

So, here's the latest. The lines for my fridge and stove are copper. A mechanic who was working on my boat, said they should be changed, and that they don't look to be in great shape. I did get the impression this guy errs on the not liking propane at all side.

Now, as far as I understand, copper will get some discoloration, but doesn't really rust. Hey, the Statue of Liberty is still standing. The guy that helped me deliver my boat isn't the biggest fan of propane himself, and changed out his own lines for rubber, and he didn't seem to be too concerned about the condition of my lines.

So, should they be changed? Or is this a waste of time and money, and not really necessary?


Here's a few pictures of my lines, in case that helps.

That would argue against copper.

Heck, I've had copper get pin-holes in my house! That is well past discoloration.

I do pipe and API tank inspections as a part of my job, and you are getting into failure territory. With that type of corrosion, it could be 5 years, it could be tomarrow.