General questions about propane refit - solenoid gauge

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by fredct

Let's all keep our vessels safe, for us and for others. In the end, EU configured or US configured vessels can be safe, provided that the equipment is leak checked, well maintained and regularly inspected.

How often do you carry out a pressure test to see if there is a leak? Is there a recommended frequency? I am not aware of one.

Can't ever remember seeing a surveyor with an manometer either, perhaps they should or for that matter owners who have gas on board to test regularly. We did install a bubble tester which with a press of the top will show if gas is flowing through the pipes.

In 2021 whilst doing a deep clean of the 34 yr old cooker, I noticed the rust on the underside of the grill burner getting worse. Could this drop off on to my toast each morning Also, it occurred that the only thing keeping the gas in the cooker were those worn little brass burner valves which also probably had o rings inside. Oh dear.

This and the UKs Calor gas fiasco when they stopped exchanging popular cylinders drove us down the electric cooking route and removed the gas problem for us.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Tin Tin

Can you be precise about the exact model and manufacturer you are talking about and reference to its spec sheet?

There are several different configurations and many different models. Choose the configuration you want to compare to Trident. Then search for that configuration online under the Marshal name. Literally dozens of suppliers sell the same Marshal unit in their own packaging and some even paint them in their own brand colour.

https://www.marshallexcelsior.com/store/regulator

One example - Take a look at a Trident model 1200-1411. Look at the info cast into the body. It is marked "Marshal Controls model 230" which is easily found on line. Now you can now do your own comparison with any Trident model just by looking and the actual manufacurers model number marked on the unit and do your own comparison of all models. Trident manufacturers nothing.

[fredct]

Some update. From what I can tell, Fireboy Xintex are not longer making regulators. Interdependently of this thread, i found that Marshall is the OPM, with different integrators adding accessories (including Trident). The basic Marshall 2-stage dual cylinders regulator is $60 to which you add 2 brass Ts and 2 pressure gauges. Good SS gauges are $50 ea. so in the end, one saves little by not using Trident. Alternative is to use gauges at the tanks which is harder to read (in my case) because of locker configuration.

[capt jgw]

Originally Posted by Pete7

How often do you carry out a pressure test to see if there is a leak?

Can't ever remember seeing a surveyor with an manometer either, perhaps they should or for that matter owners who have gas on board to test regularly. We did install a bubble tester which with a press of the top will show if gas is flowing through the pipes.

You don't need any special tools to do a leak test. There should be a pressure gauge in the system and you use that. Make sure all the burners etc are off then open the tank hand valve and energize the solenoid. Then close the hand valve leaving the solenoid energized. The gauge will be reading tank pressure, let it sit for ten minutes and look again. If the pressure has dropped you have a leak. Probably should do it every time you change tanks at a minimum, weekly would be better.
This is the only reason the gauge is there, it won't tell you anything about how full the tank is. You do that by weight.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by fredct

I will try to answer every question raised in this post in a single message.

1- Vessel is all-Al, with an exterior locker with a proper floor vent. ABYC compliant. Contains 2X30 lbs tanks.

2- Vessel is European so the line is a solid copper run with a flex coupling to the stove, again, compliant with ABYC.

3- European boats have a manual valve near stove. I will leave that in place but ADD the within-locker solenoid with remote shutoff away from stove, per ABYC.

4- I have an in-galley propane detector (basically just an alarm).

5- ABYC does not call for a propane sensor in the gas locker.

6- The existing solid copper line has a "Swage-type" fitting on it (not flare). It could be replaced but the end result would be similar.

What I got from this post:
1- Solenoid draws about 1 A. 16/14 gauge sufficient up to 100 feet, way longer than I need.
2- No consensus on need to buy marine grade regulator or solenoid (as opposed to RV grade).
3- Connection between the solenoid and the copper run needs to be leak tight. Careful of fitting type (Europe vs USA). Got it.

Sounds like you've got a good handle on all this!

A couple of random comments:

1. A common weak point in boat gas systems is the gas locker. A leaky gas locker lost a British sailor his leg in the infamous incident in Poole Harbour some decades ago. There are two things to be careful of: (a) that the locker itself is absolutely sealed to the interior volume; (b) that the locker drain line is clear, and doesn't have any high points which would allow a water trap to form. Gas would not go down your kitchen sink even though water would, and you have a water trap in it. Think about it.

2. Gas alarm with relay to shut off the solenoid is a good idea.

3. Gas alarm sensors are destroyed by water so be careful how you place them. This is a tricky job. Get it wrong and the alarm won't sense gas flowing.

4. I never found "marine" solenoids to be more reliable than generic ones, and I don't think there is even any such thing as a marine regulator. These are cheap expendables so just keep spares on board. Note that solenoids come in two flavors -- the kind that needs full current on the coil to hold it open, and the kind that has some kind of latching relay and so doesn't. The latter uses a lot less power and generates a lot less heat and is recommended. They vary widely in quality but price is rarely much of a guide. Once you find one that works buy a few of them and keep them in spares together with gas sealing tape, extra fittings, extra hose, clamps, extra regulators.

5. Or just cook with induction and forget about all of the above. I have single eye induction hob on board and actually do about 90% of my cooking on that rather than my four burner SMEG gas stove. One year a solenoid went out at the beginning of the summer and I didn't have gas until the next summer when I finally got around to replacing it, and hardly noticed. Gas is a lot of trouble, another fuel to worry about, risk. If I were building a new boat, it would be induction only and no gas on board.

[fredct]

Dear Dockhead,


My locker is industrial grade. ZERO worries about leaking to the interior of the boat.

In my mind a "marine" regulator is any old regulator with a pressure gauge to meet ABYC. In the US, that means a Marshall 2-stage with a couple of fittings and a mounting bracket.

I have not made a final decision on the solenoid. I did not realize that some used less current. Will report back when I find it.
For the rest, it's self explanatory. The least documented element is the connection between the solenoid and the gas line. A flex is needed I think but I will save that for last minute.

[wsmurdoch]

This is from a previous thread. The bit of wiring is still in place and still working although I am up to 10,000uF.

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post2880363 Post 3.

Bill

[RaymondR]

I have not seen it on a gas solenoid valve but have seen three wire solenoids on industrial air valves. One of the wires goes to ground, a second is the pull in coil and the third the holding coil.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by fredct

Dear Dockhead,

My locker is industrial grade. ZERO worries about leaking to the interior of the boat.

In my mind a "marine" regulator is any old regulator with a pressure gauge to meet ABYC. In the US, that means a Marshall 2-stage with a couple of fittings and a mounting bracket.

I have not made a final decision on the solenoid. I did not realize that some used less current. Will report back when I find it.
For the rest, it's self explanatory. The least documented element is the connection between the solenoid and the gas line. A flex is needed I think but I will save that for last minute.

OK, the locker's industrial grade, but I suggest taking care to ensure that it stays that way. Do you have screws passing through the walls of it? To mount the regulator, for example? I do . It means I have to carefully seal those threads any time I take the screws out. You've got a drain at the bottom as well, right? Have you ever had it apart to seal it?


Gas safety isn't really rocket science, but there are a lot of small details, and requires a thorough approach. It's not a giant amount of trouble but it's enough that for sure I would go all electric if I built a new boat.


As to the connection between solenoid and gas line -- I think the standards allow you to do what you want since it's inside the gas locker. I have a rubber hose (replaced every 3 years) which connects to the stub of the hard copper gas line which sticks into the gas locker. And, oh, that's another place which needs regular inspection and resealing.


My gas locker is set into the deck at the port quarter. Sea water can get into it if the decks are awash in rough weather, no matter how carefully I have sealed the lid. A better design would have the gas locker above decks, let into the coachroof somewhere, like on the Discovery 67. I've also seen gas lockers in anchor lockers, which I think if properly done is also better than what I have.

[fredct]

Dear Dockhead, industrial means industrial. Solid welded Al box, above water line, no connection at all to the inside of the boat, 1-in drain line (straight, no elbows).

I saw that ABYC does not really cover the link between the solenoid and the line going to the appliance. Some sort of flex needed there for sure. I will leave that for last minute.