Head Puzzle

[ggray]

Originally Posted by malbert73

This is exactly how my head is plumbed. During daily use we flush with sea water to conserve. Once a day at bedtime I close the seacock to the sink, fill the sink with fresh water and squirt in a small amount of raritan CP. Then flush it through.
We are on the 4th year with same hoses and manual PHII head, and not even a trace of odor...

Yes, all sorts of advantages to this setup.

Head still can be used when the boat is hauled (your discharge is directed to a holding tank, isn't it?).

It's easy to run antifreeze thru the entire system come cold weather.

And I know Peggie frowns on lubing the pump with vegetable oil, but that's how I do it. I have the Jabsco head, disassembled the pump once to lube it properly, and had a devil of a time stopping the leaks afterward. So for me, it's vegetable oil, down the sink.

Biggest problem is sometimes you need to put the stopper in the sink for the pump to draw well.

[crashkahuna]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

I have heard of people using a t and valve from the bathroom sink. Run the sink full of water and then flush it through the toilet when you are done.

I set mine up same way as suggested by another forum member. Fresh water goes from sink so keeps system clean and goes thru the whole system (not just poured in bowl).

[cchesley]

Originally Posted by peghall

Connecting any toilet designed to use sea water to the onboard pressurized water system is a very bad idea and EVERY toilet mfr specifically warns against doing so because because it cannot be done without risk of e-coli contamination of the fresh water system, damage to the toilet or both.

You say you'd install a "check valve"...that's not enough...you'd need a vacuum breaker and redundant one way valves. However, that would only solve half the problem. The other half: manual toilets are designed to PULL flush water through the pump. Pressurized water PUSHES water through the pump, which will mess up seal, valve and gasket alignment....creating more problems than it solves.

STOP! I think I'm missing something here. Don't most freshwater flush marine toilets plumb into the domestic water system (at least on the non pressurized side)? How does a pressurized system leave one susceptible to contamination but a non-pressurized system not leave one susceptible to contamination? I get the part about putting pressure to a pump designed for manual operation being bad. What do manufacturers do that enable their FW toilets to pull from my domestic tanks? or do they recommend a separate FW supply system/tank?

[svHyLyte]

Drawing from the sink drain will work but does require that one close the thru-hull. If fresh water only is a must, why not install a small "pony tank" to capture gray water from the sink that can be pulled into the head when necessary. The tank--maybe 2-3 gallons collects water from the sink and, when filled, overflows to a standard thru-hull discharge. A second "pick-up" line runs from the bottom of the pony-tank to the raw-water intake on the head. In the unlikely event the pony tank empties, one simply pumps water into the sink which runs through and refills the pony tank.

FWIW...

[HopCar]

HyLyte, I like the pony tank idea. My Mama told me to wash my hands after using the toilet. Following Mamas advice would help refill the pony tank and conserve fresh water.

[svHyLyte]

Originally Posted by HopCar

HyLyte, I like the pony tank idea. My Mama told me to wash my hands after using the toilet. Following Mamas advice would help refill the pony tank and conserve fresh water.

It will work but frankly, I don't see the logic for not simply using sea water followed up with a couple of cups of fresh to clear the lines once the bowl's been emptied. We've been doing that with our forward, manual, head for the last 10 years with good success. In our case, we add fresh water to the bowl and a squirt or two of a "SaltAway/Fresh Water" solution, push the flush lever to "Dry Bowl" and pump the bowl empty. This has kept our lines and valves clear and trouble free and we have no head odors on the boat at all.

FWIW...

PS: I'm very glad to see the Hopkins-Carter is still in business. That's a name I remember from my childhood. Does the place still have any smell if Pine-Pitch, Tar and old Hemp?

[osirissail]

In the "olden days" sea water flushed MSD's were the standard and flushed directly overboard, there was no "holding" of the discharge in a tank.
- - In today's world of Potty Police and a raft of other rules and laws about discharges, we are forced to retain and hold all the "black water" discharge in holding tanks.
- - So now if you are using "raw/sea water" to flush your MSD you are pumping a large quantity of marine organisms (little buggies), etc. into the mix inside that "holding tank." And it all sits there until you get around to visiting a pump out station.
- - So it will be interesting to see how in these days and future days the mix of hungry sea critters and your waste products react to each other - fermenting in the holding tanks, hoses, and valves.

[peghall]

Of course a separate flush water tank is a safe source of water for the toilet, but that's completely different from just tapping into the potable water plumbing, which is what the OP asked about doing. However, just teeing into a sink drain is a whole simpler way to do and allows you to have it both ways. However, that only works if the head and the sink are on the same side side of the keel....which may leave a separate tank as the only way to supply fresh water. In which case, the easiest way to do that is an UNvented bladder tank. Find a location that's convenient to both the toilet and the sink...tee the fill for the bladder into the sink drain (very handy li'l thing, that sink drain line!) using a y-valve, connect the toilet intake line to the bladder. No other plumbing needed, not even a vent. When the bladder needs filling, turn the y-valve in the sink drain line and run water down the sink.

Btw...today's marine toilets are a lot more efficient than they used to be, especially those that are still in service long after they've become so worn that rebuilding no longer does much to help 'em any more. Today's average manual OR electric toilet today only needs about 2 liters of water/flush unless the system is so badly designed that the tank is too far from the toilet. But that only underlines the beauty of letting the head sink drain and toilet intake share the same thru-hull...you really only need to use fresh water to rinse out the system, flush with sea water the rest of the time.

[Aussiesuede]

Originally Posted by osirissail

- - you are pumping a large quantity of marine organisms (little buggies), etc. into the mix inside that "holding tank." And it all sits there until you get around to visiting a pump out station.
- - So it will be interesting to see how in these days and future days the mix of hungry sea critters and your waste products react to each other -

Suddenly I feel the urge to start looking before sitting just to make sure some scary mutated critters aren't starring up from within the depths of that dark hole.

[peghall]

...if you are using "raw/sea water" to flush your MSD you are pumping a large quantity of marine organisms (little buggies), etc. into the mix inside that "holding tank." And it all sits there until you get around to visiting a pump out station.
- - So it will be interesting to see how in these days and future days the mix of hungry sea critters and your waste products react to each other - fermenting in the holding tanks, hoses, and valves.

There's nothing new about holding tanks and potty police, at least not here in the US...the laws requiring vessels to either hold or treat have been on the books for over 30 years. No reports of any mutant ninja brine shrimp yet...

[HopCar]

HyLyte, thanks for remembering Hopkins-Carter! No the smell of our old building is long gone. That was what a chandlery should smell like. I've often thought that I should put some good smelly oakum in the air conditioner ducts. Sorry for going off topic.

[DeepFrz]

'Cuz if you don't have even that much power, you prob'ly won't have lights, nav equipment, communication, radar, autopilot or a whole BUNCH of stuff that makes the toilet the LAST thing on your mind...

I don't know Peggy, but that scenario would probably make the need for a working toilet even more urgent... ;o)

[peghall]

I'm more inclined to believe it would create a major pucker instead!

[osirissail]

Originally Posted by peghall

There's nothing new about holding tanks and potty police, at least not here in the US...the laws requiring vessels to either hold or treat have been on the books for over 30 years. No reports of any mutant ninja brine shrimp yet...

Very true, except for the last 27 years there has not been any serious enforcement of those old laws except for a few places in California and New England.
- - From other CF Threads on the subject there seems to be a fanatical effort by various political entities to increasingly blame cruisers for all the pollution pouring into the harbors and bays. They have gotten a bit over the top in "enforcing" the old laws as they apply to cruisers while ignoring the millions of gallons of pollution flowing from their own municipal plants.
- - So we are all paying more attention to our MSD's and holding tank and locked Y-valves and other related areas.

[peghall]

You've overlooked one of the "hotbeds" of "no discharge," the Florida Keys.

You'd be surprised at how much enforcement there's been for the last 20 years, especially on inland waters and the Great Lakes. There's actually enough enforcement that just about every boat has a holding tank now...but more of 'em are being illegally dumped than pumped. However, waste still has to be managed while it is in the tank...and so far, no one has been bitten on the arse by anything in the bowl.