Heating options

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Hope you don't use those inside a boat!

Why not? [emoji3]

[jtsailjt]

Seriously, please do not get an unvented heater. Dockhead explained it pretty well. They release fumes into your boat and they burn up the oxygen. That's really bad for your lungs. Unvented propane ones add enough water vapor so it'll be dripping off your hatches enough to wake you up and after awhile you'll have noticeably more mildew. They also don't put out much heat at all. Tempting because they're simple, but bad idea.

I once had a Force 10 propane vented wall mounted heater and didn't like that either. It had CO sniffer and auto cut off if the CO reached a certain level. Even though it was vented, if I ran the heater for more than about 15 minutes the CO detector would trigger the auto cutoff and the heater would turn itself off. So, I had to open the hatch about halfway to keep enough fresh air in the boat to keep the heater running. That sort of defeated the reason for having a heater because the outside air was cold and with that big an opening it was VERY drafty. If I were going to get a heater like that I'd want one that drew the ignition air from outside and kept it separate from cabin air.

I've also had both an Espar and an Webasto and both work well (don't know anything about Planar), but on a boat your size you probably don't have enough batteries to run it for very long before that becomes an issue. Plus, it's more complication and takes up more space than you have available when you figure out where to install it and route the exhaust and the intake air duct and the heating ducts. For your purposes, you don't need to go to all that trouble.

So, I think the best solution for you is a bulkhead mounted diesel heater like the Refleks or Dickinson or similar. They are nearly foolproof to install and put out plenty of heat, are quiet, don't run down your batteries and don't take up valuable locker space, plus they can add some nice ambience on a cold night.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Pete7

You mean it doesn't rain in So. cal? why would anyone want to live there,



Pete

It does rain several times a year. Even so I still despise living here and the first reasonable job offer the wife gets in the Pacific NW we're gone.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

Seriously, please do not get an unvented heater. Dockhead explained it pretty well. They release fumes into your boat and they burn up the oxygen. That's really bad for your lungs. Unvented propane ones add enough water vapor so it'll be dripping off your hatches enough to wake you up and after awhile you'll have noticeably more mildew. They also don't put out much heat at all. Tempting because they're simple, but bad idea.

I once had a Force 10 propane vented wall mounted heater and didn't like that either. It had CO sniffer and auto cut off if the CO reached a certain level. Even though it was vented, if I ran the heater for more than about 15 minutes the CO detector would trigger the auto cutoff and the heater would turn itself off. So, I had to open the hatch about halfway to keep enough fresh air in the boat to keep the heater running. That sort of defeated the reason for having a heater because the outside air was cold and with that big an opening it was VERY drafty. If I were going to get a heater like that I'd want one that drew the ignition air from outside and kept it separate from cabin air.

I've also had both an Espar and an Webasto and both work well (don't know anything about Planar), but on a boat your size you probably don't have enough batteries to run it for very long before that becomes an issue. Plus, it's more complication and takes up more space than you have available when you figure out where to install it and route the exhaust and the intake air duct and the heating ducts. For your purposes, you don't need to go to all that trouble.

So, I think the best solution for you is a bulkhead mounted diesel heater like the Refleks or Dickinson or similar. They are nearly foolproof to install and put out plenty of heat, are quiet, don't run down your batteries and don't take up valuable locker space, plus they can add some nice ambience on a cold night.

While I agree with 99% of what you stated I must remind everyone that propane only adds 1oz per hour per thousand BTU of output. That's less than 1/4 the moisture that one breathing human will add to the moisture in the boat. Use a small dehumidifier unit. Like DRI z air to negate that part.

Now I still would recommend the Wallas heater. Wallas | Wallas 22 Dt boat heater | 22 Dt boat heater | Silent diesel boat heater this unit uses less than one ah and about a cup of fuel per hour on high.

[newhaul]

:

Originally Posted by Adelie

It does rain several times a year. Even so I still despise living here and the first reasonable job offer the wife gets in the Pacific NW we're gone.

What does she do for work? They are begging for hihly qualified workers in just about every field here.


Do you want to upgrade your bnoat I know of a Spencer 35 that is down in San Diego all it needs is an engine it's 3k. And there is a yanmar that would be a great fit on Craigslist there for under 3k so for about 6 k. You can have a pedigreed boat. Remember Hal Roth and his spencer.
PM me if interested.

[Adelie]

She was a university prof in Pschology. Field of research so narrow that only UW could support her work and one of her 2 post-doc advisors is still there so not likely until he retires and by then she'll probably be close enough to retirement herself they won't want her.

Currently she's moved onto administration which opens a whole bunch of other opportunities in time anywhere from Salem to Bellingham. But she's only been doing the admin thing for a year so it'll be 1-3yr before she's experienced enough for a college up there to want to poach her.

Yes the Spencer35 is a pedigree boat and if I owned one I'd do what Hal did, fill in the prop aperture, have the prop off center and use a folding or feathering prop. Alas it is not the boat I want.

I want any of about 6 Cal models (36 for preference) or a C&C Mega 30.

I have a lot of experience with Cals and would take them most places except high latitudes.

The Mega would be the perfect boat for me and the wife on the US east coast and into the Caribbean.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Adelie

She was a university prof in Pschology. Field of research so narrow that only UW could support her work and one of her 2 post-doc advisors is still there so not likely until he retires and by then she'll probably be close enough to retirement herself they won't want her.

Currently she's moved onto administration which opens a whole bunch of other opportunities in time anywhere from Salem to Bellingham. But she's only been doing the admin thing for a year so it'll be 1-3yr before she's experienced enough for a college up there to want to poach her.

Yes the Spencer35 is a pedigree boat and if I owned one I'd do what Hal did, fill in the prop aperture, have the prop off center and use a folding or feathering prop. Alas it is not the boat I want.

I want any of about 6 Cal models (36 for preference) or a C&C Mega 30.

I have a lot of experience with Cals and would take them most places except high latitudes.

The Mega would be the perfect boat for me and the wife on the US east coast and into the Caribbean.

Heck just get the Spencer and retire early

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by newhaul

While I agree with 99% of what you stated I must remind everyone that propane only adds 1oz per hour per thousand BTU of output. That's less than 1/4 the moisture that one breathing human will add to the moisture in the boat. Use a small dehumidifier unit. Like DRI z air to negate that part.



Now I still would recommend the Wallas heater. Wallas | Wallas 22 Dt boat heater | 22 Dt boat heater | Silent diesel boat heater this unit uses less than one ah and about a cup of fuel per hour on high.

Well I agree 100% with the factual portion of your post and the Wallas does look like a good option that I wasn't aware of.

I only differ with you on your opinion about how important that extra ounce of water per 1000btu/hour is to comfort. My feeling is why introduce any moisture into the boats atmosphere that you don't have to. Theres already plenty of moisture present and the goal is to be warm and dry feeling inside and burning unvented propane helps with the warmth part but not the dry part, plus it can be dangerous if you get distracted. Vented propane heaters are fine as long as the firebox is closed off from the cabin air so you don't run into the problem I did with the CO detector shutting it off before the boat even had a chance to get warm.

Though the Wallas is interesting I think I'd prefer a diesel fired heater like the Dickinson or Refleks because of their simplicity and the ambience of the visible flame behind the glass. I also like the looks of some of those heaters even when they're not lit. The Wallas looks like a competent appliance. So if I were choosing a lot would depend on available locations on my boat to mount the heater as well as how the aesthetics of them both would fit in with the overall decor. Both choices would safely do the job.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Why not? [emoji3]

A couple of reasons:

1. Propane is vastly more dangerous on a boat, than on land. Why? Because it's heavier than air and collects in the bilges in case it leaks. Propane is more explosive than TNT. Therefore ABYC and other standards require propane to be kept outside the hull volume, in a separate locker vented overboard (or outside where leaked propane can't leak inside). The same regulations forbid "unattended devices" (that means heaters) which don't have sealed burners. Cheap portable consumer devices are the worst of all -- the gas bottles are flimsy and prone to rust and leak. Just don't do it!

2. Burning propane for heat inside the hull volume with an unvented device is NASTY. Propane has a lot of hydrogen in it and produces tons of water when it burns. It's one thing to burn a little bit to cook on (even that is nasty; my boat has a powerful exhaust fan over the stove to get all the combustion products out of the boat), entirely another to leave it going all night for heat. The water fills the air and condenses everywhere. But besides that, an unvented propane heater depletes oxygen, emits CO2 and some amount of carbon monoxide, and is just plain nasty.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by newhaul

While I agree with 99% of what you stated I must remind everyone that propane only adds 1oz per hour per thousand BTU of output. That's less than 1/4 the moisture that one breathing human will add to the moisture in the boat. Use a small dehumidifier unit. Like DRI z air to negate that part. . .

But that is PER THOUSAND BTU. 1000 BTU is only 293 watt/hours. If you need 1000 watts of heat (minimum on even a small boat, to do anything serious), you will be burning 141cc of liquid propane per hour. That produces 126cc of liquid water or enough to fully saturate 17 cubic meters of air, or turn 34 cubic meters of dry air at 50% humidity into wet air at 100% humidity (at 20C). The entire hull volume of a 31 foot boat is not going to be 34 cubic meters, and the salon by itself is probably less than 10.

As to the comparison with a person breathing -- the number only applies to a person breathing in 20% humidity air, basically desert air. A person breathing 100% humidity air emits no water at all. If the cabin is a pretty comfortable 60%, then the amount of water emitted by a person breathing is half of what was shown.


These are the numbers, but they will be unnecessary for anyone who has actually used an unvented propane heater in an enclosed space like a boat -- they will know how horribly wet it is.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

But that is PER THOUSAND BTU. 1000 BTU is only 293 watt/hours. If you need 1000 watts of heat (minimum on even a small boat, to do anything serious), you will be burning 141cc of liquid propane per hour. That produces 126cc of liquid water or enough to fully saturate 17 cubic meters of air, or turn 34 cubic meters of dry air at 50% humidity into wet air at 100% humidity (at 20C). The entire hull volume of a 31 foot boat is not going to be 34 cubic meters, and the salon by itself is probably less than 10.

As to the comparison with a person breathing -- the number only applies to a person breathing in 20% humidity air, basically desert air. A person breathing 100% humidity air emits no water at all. If the cabin is a pretty comfortable 60%, then the amount of water emitted by a person breathing is half of what was shown.


These are the numbers, but they will be unnecessary for anyone who has actually used an unvented propane heater in an enclosed space like a boat -- they will know how horribly wet it is.

Love how you put it in cc instead of Oz as I stated .
126 cc = 4 1/2 oz of moisture.
About like the mmgw types using the kelvan scale to make it seem like a lot more than it is.

All this fear of propane and yet many hundred thousands of people use propane every day with no ill effects.

Now while I see no issue with using unvented propane devices for heating or cooking for that matter. I don't sleep with any heating device that is not sealed combustion. ( that's what goose down is for)

Please give speific evidence of propane caused issues on vessels.

[john61ct]

There is no question that propane is dangerous, especially on a boat.

As long as there is always a captain knowledgeable of the dangers and precautions to take on board and that captain is always there and in charge, the danger can be minimized.

There is no question that extended burning of unvented appliances adds a lot of condensation and potentially fatal CO levels. Again, ventilation and alarm systems can help alleviate those problems, *if* every captain is aware.

The only "pro" to this approach is saving money.

A more fool-proof approach would make more sense IMO if you're not desperately poor.

I've had a family member killed by CO poisoning, and he was a smart fellow and rarely careless.

But your boat, your call.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by newhaul

. . .

All this fear of propane and yet many hundred thousands of people use propane every day with no ill effects.

. . . .

Please give speific evidence of propane caused issues on vessels.

When Propane Explodes -- Locals Come to the Aid of Would Be Circumnavigator



When propane explodes - locals come to the aid of a would-be circumnavigator - MySailing.com.au



LPG explosion kills sailor in Guatemala

https://www.practical-sailor.com/blo...a-11334-1.html



Man Burned in Sailboat Explosion March 2017

Man burned in NC sailboat explosion | Man burned in NC sailboat explosion | photoMojo | WNCN.COM




A man is missing and feared dead after a small boat caught fire on Lake Pend Oreille near Bayview, ID late Thursday morning. One of the men reported a fire from a portable propane heater forced the men into the water to escape the flames. In addition a man is missing.
Investigators reported the water temperature at 38 degrees at the time of the search. The depth of the lake was 500-700 feet in that area, which is too deep for public safety divers, according to the Kootenai County Sheriff's Office. One mariner had a life jacket on, but another couldn't put one on since the fire blocked access to the stored life jackets in the bow of the boat.
Boats and Propane Don't Mix
Marginal Maritime Advice: Boats and Propane Never Mix....


More Than 80 Firefighters Huge Blaze on Moored Boat
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/254736...losions-heard/

tp://www.boatmoves.com/LT_Page_1.htm

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

When Propane Explodes -- Locals Come to the Aid of Would Be Circumnavigator

Attachment 156945

When propane explodes - locals come to the aid of a would-be circumnavigator - MySailing.com.au



LPG explosion kills sailor in Guatemala

https://www.practical-sailor.com/blo...a-11334-1.html

Attachment 156944

Man Burned in Sailboat Explosion March 2017

Man burned in NC sailboat explosion | Man burned in NC sailboat explosion | photoMojo | WNCN.COM

Attachment 156946


A man is missing and feared dead after a small boat caught fire on Lake Pend Oreille near Bayview, ID late Thursday morning. One of the men reported a fire from a portable propane heater forced the men into the water to escape the flames. In addition a man is missing.
Investigators reported the water temperature at 38 degrees at the time of the search. The depth of the lake was 500-700 feet in that area, which is too deep for public safety divers, according to the Kootenai County Sheriff's Office. One mariner had a life jacket on, but another couldn't put one on since the fire blocked access to the stored life jackets in the bow of the boat.
Boats and Propane Don't Mix
Marginal Maritime Advice: Boats and Propane Never Mix....
Attachment 156947

More Than 80 Firefighters Huge Blaze on Moored Boat
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/254736...losions-heard/

tp://www.boatmoves.com/LT_Page_1.htm
Attachment 156948

Kinda funny to me that you post several different links to stories about one event . ( is that to make things appear worse than they actually are) .


To clarify all of your links are to three different events . over several years time.

[Dockhead]

The other way portable gas heaters can kill you, is by carbon monoxide. Here's a list of the scores of deaths from carbon monoxide in the UK since 1995. Notice how many of them -- dozens of deaths -- are caused by portable propane heaters, either on boats or in campers or other vehicles:

Deaths | CO-Gas Safety


Every year in the UK someone is killed by gas on a boat, either explosion or suffocation, and sometimes many people, and portable gas appliances are disproportionately represented among the causes. Many years it's the leading cause of death among boaters.