Hot shower options good enough for the girlfriend to move in

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

What you say might be true if the “most boats” you refer to are exclusively boats without gensets. Since the size of cruising boats are constantly increasing, “most boats” now have room for a genset and are equipped with one. I have a genset and haven’t spent a night at a dock in years and it works perfectly for me. While “sailing” I don’t think I’ve hardly ever spent a day without running the engine for at least an hour or so, which is plenty of time for all aboard to have a hot shower. Either there’s too little wind for part of the day/night or the wind is strong and from off the bow or I need it to leave/enter a harbor. So I really don’t know what you’re thinking about when you say a traditional electric/heat exchanger water tank doesn’t work. It works great for me!

Unless you have a cat covered with solar panels and have almost constant sunshine, the other two options are propane or diesel. But it seems to me that showering daily while using propane to heat the water will require the boater to either carry a LOT of explosive propane onboard or always be in search of your next propane “fix.” I think a diesel powered water heater makes more sense but since the OP is at a dock, a traditional electric/heat exchanger using engine coolant makes the most sense.

i agree with you...we are a cat covered in solar panels but still find ourselves using the gennie every 2-3 days to power the watermaker (240v). so whenever we're making fw, we simply flick on the hw systems elements and make hw as well

of course this is at anchor. if on passage we can always find an excuse to run an engine for 30mins or so and bingo : heaps of piping hot water.

what could be simpler ?

cheers,

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

What you say might be true if the “most boats” you refer to are exclusively boats without gensets. Since the size of cruising boats are constantly increasing, “most boats” now have room for a genset

We have room for a genset.
Do we want one?
Do we need one?


There are shower solutions that don’t rely on running a generator, the main engine or plugging into shore power. You don’t need a cat, or be cruising a hot area (although this has appeal ), or be constantly on the lookout for propane as you have indicated.

The traditional calorifier works for many boats, especially as relatively few boats spend much time away for shore power or regularly undertake long passages. If it works for you that is great, but it is not a good solution for many cruising boats and there are alternatives.

[Seabeau]

Are there at present, any propane instantaneous water heaters approved for marine use in the US?

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

We have room for a genset.
Do we want one?
Do we need one?


There are shower solutions that don’t rely on running a generator, the main engine or plugging into shore power. You don’t need a cat, or be cruising a hot area (although this has appeal ), or be constantly on the lookout for propane as you have indicated.

The traditional calorifier works for many boats, especially as relatively few boats spend much time away for shore power or regularly undertake long passages. If it works for you that is great, but it is not a good solution for many cruising boats and there are alternatives.

Yes, the main engine heats the calorifier when underway without costing you anything and that’s one of the reasons why the calorifier is a very good solution. On long passages it works great because very few days go by without needing to run the engine for at least an hour or so, and that’s plenty of time to make a full tank of very hot water, and it’s for free since it uses energy that would otherwise go into the ocean. My boat holds 170 gallons of diesel and my engine burns about 1.5 gallons/hour at cruise so on even a very long passage I’m not likely to run out. I realize there are other alternatives but those all have weaknesses too, and also lack the flexibility of being able to heat the calorifier by using 2 sources of energy, electricity or heat generated by the engine. Any alternative is going to require that somehow the same amount of energy be generated. It takes a LOT of solar/wind and consistent sunny skies to heat water so that’s not viable for most cruisers who want to live comfortably. Propane yields about 91,000btu/gallon, which will raise about 150 gallons of water from 70F to 140F so contains enough energy to be viable but diesel yields about 139,000btu/gallon and most boats have MUCH bigger diesel fuel tanks than propane tanks. I guess it comes down to the negatives associated with burning explosive, moisture generating propane compared with the negatives of burning diesel in either a dedicated diesel powered water heater or in a genset. The genset not only makes hot water while at anchor but will also bulk charge your batteries or run your air conditioner(s) if you have them or even a scuba air compressor.

I also disagree with your assertion that relatively few boats spend much time away from shore power. Here in Maine, sailboats outnumber recreational motorboats by a very wide margin and almost all of them are kept on moorings so never get plugged into shore power, and the vast majority rely on the traditional calorifier for their hot water. No, if you don’t have a genset it’s not ideal to make hot water using your engine at a low power setting while moored or anchored, but it does work and avoids having either a second engine (genset) to maintain or a second source of fuel to procure, store, and maintain the water heater that burns it. I’m all for alternative energy and my boat has both solar and a wind generator, but there’s nothing like a genset to make life aboard more comfortable in all weather conditions. I suppose you have your own reasons for not wanting to have one on your boat and to each their own, but they’re pretty versatile and my experience from owning 2 boats equipped with Northern Lights 5.5kw gensets has been that they require very little maintenance and mine only burns about 1/3 gallon per hour so it costs me less than $2/day to be able to bulk charge my batteries and run the watermaker and heat up a days supply of hot water and also have the option to quickly bring the boats interior up to temperature on a cold day using the 2 reverse cycle air conditioners, then just run the Webasto diesel heater to maintain that temperature. I can’t imagine life aboard without it.

Since you don’t have a genset or apparently a calorifier to make use of the heat your engine puts out while underway, I’m curious how you make enough hot water to shower and wash dishes, etc. while at anchor or on passage?

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Just a point of clarification: We are not always be in search of our next propane “fix.” We have two 4.5 gallon propane bottles. For us a tank lasts 21 days when we ARE NOT conserving water, and ARE taking daily showers, (we also cook at home a lot). So at least every six weeks we need to find a refill station. We are usually in a port more often than that for other shopping and we find a place. In 35 countries we have not had a problem. We have always found a way to refill our bottles, although in a few places we had to be creative.



Here in Mexico our bottles cost $4.00 to refill. So about $5/month. Other places it has been more. but propane is easy to use and cheap. For us it works.

I guess I need to clarify my use of the word “always” when referring to the need to replenish your supply of energy to make hot water with. But when you consider that diesel contains about 50% more energy per gallon than does propane, and most boats have a MUCH bigger supply of diesel stored onboard than they do propane, and the 9 gallons of propane in your 2 tanks compares to only about 6 gallons of diesel, you need to replenish your energy supply MUCH more often than if you were using diesel fuel to generate hot water. You’ve been successfully and safely doing it a long time so I’m not suggesting it doesn’t/can’t work, but think it’s important to try to be as realistic and objective as possible when analyzing all the pros and cons of each energy source.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Seabeau

Are there at present, any propane instantaneous water heaters approved for marine use in the US?

Approved by who?

I can list you several that I have approved.

From 35 years experience on this boat with propane instant water heaters I have decided that the criteria for approval by relevant authorites (if such exists) are a mite too strict and I anyhow generally disregard such recommendations from people who presumably are sitting in an office somewhere deciding what is safe and what is not safe. The problem is that reasonableness is not considered, the risk is all black or white.

When any risk at all is deemed to be too much risk, if we all followed those recommendations we would all have to stop many sailing and boating activities.

I prefer to determine my own level of acceptable risk.

[Don C L]

So when I was in college and lived on my boat I always trudged up to the showers. Obviously that's not an option for you, unless you are a member of a gym, which might be an option (?). I think you have gotten all the best options here already, but if any of those don't work or are too expensive, while out sailing with the kids we use this, a garden sprayer with either solar heated water or a tea kettle of hot water mixed with the cold. You might be amazed how little water and power is needed for a bath and washing, even long, hair. Take off the rigid tube and you can easily squirt all body parts. The only hassle is you have to pump it once in a while. Just another option to throw out there. Pretty hard to beat for simplicity and low cost.

Upon reflection, if you needed a short term fix, I think I'd go with this battery powered model. No pumping needed and 4 gallons. This one runs 10 hours on a charge. I was also thinking that most people really want a warm place to shower just as much as hot water, so I'd be thinking about how to make the head area as warm as possible in the morning, maybe a small electric space heater, shielded from moisture of course, to go with it. When you turn on the tea kettle in the morning, turn on the space heater at the same time. Might be a workable routine.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

Since you don’t have a genset or apparently a calorifier to make use of the heat your engine puts out while underway, I’m curious how you make enough hot water to shower and wash dishes, etc. while at anchor or on passage?

We can produce hot water:

Via our diesel heater
Via solar electricity
Via shore power
Via the engine
Via thermal solar heating
Via propane

These can be mixed and matched depending on the situation. Today, for example, at anchor we could have generated all our hot water via our solar panels or our diesel stove. Perhaps 95% of our hot water is produced using one of these two alternatives, but the other options provide versatility and redundancy.

Our solution would not suit everyone, but there are alternatives to the traditional calorifier without the drawbacks you envision.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Approved by who?



I can list you several that I have approved.



From 35 years experience on this boat with propane instant water heaters I have decided that the criteria for approval by relevant authorites (if such exists) are a mite too strict and I anyhow generally disregard such recommendations from people who presumably are sitting in an office somewhere deciding what is safe and what is not safe. The problem is that reasonableness is not considered, the risk is all black or white.



When any risk at all is deemed to be too much risk, if we all followed those recommendations we would all have to stop many sailing and boating activities.



I prefer to determine my own level of acceptable risk.

I’ve got to agree with you about excessive regulation that is more about potential lawsuits than actual danger. Sometimes it seems like they are set up more to protect very determined total idiots from earning a Darwin Award than to protect reasonably careful people.

I think propane can be used safely IF all safety protocols are followed. I have a propane stove and it has a single continuous line from the tank to the short flexible hose leading to the gimballed stove. There’s a solenoid valve and dedicated breaker that both must be on for propane to flow. The propane is stored in a dedicated locker with a continuously downward vent overboard and I periodically push a coat hanger down through it because I once heard of wasps plugging a similar vent hose. I don’t store things that could cause a spark in the propane locker. The solenoid valve switch is located near the stove with an “on” indicator light and is only turned on immediately prior to lighting stove snd off immediately after. That’s one thing that seems a little problematic with a propane water heater because it would be pretty inconvenient to run to one location in the galley to hit the propane solenoid switch every time I was in one of the heads and wanted to wash my hands with warm water. Since that means the propane line to the hot water heater would almost always be full of propane under pressure, I’d want that line to be continuous and short and be in a well ventilated area and with a propane detector in that compartment. I definitely wouldn’t want the propane water heater to be inside the living space unless it was vented. So I think it’s very doable but I also think that except for the much higher initial cost, a diesel water heater or genset /calorifier combo is a better option due to the relative safety and greater energy density of diesel.

[wingssail]

Well, this is getting to ba a good discussion, and keep in mind as I add to the discussion that there is no single right answer.

It is very true that diesel packs more BTU than propane and being less explosive it is safer. Also, with the same amount of tankage you can go longer on a refil.

But going longer than a month is not a high priority for us, and the simplicity of a propane heater rather than heating water by running the diesel or installing a diesel heater we found compelling.

For us (not everyone else) the priorities are simplicity, size, and weight. Now we have endless hot water, anywhere, anytime, instantly, with no additional fuel source or tankage, with a device which you can literally hold in one hand.

As for the recommendation for installation and use of propane devices:

• We don't see the need for a single continuous line from the tank to the device. We have a "T" to feed two devices.
• We don't have a shut off and a light at each device. A single centrally located shut-off with a light controls both devices (and is within feet of each, and in clear view of both.
• The other recommendations we do, or try to, comply with.