Problem with Wilcox-Crittenden “ classic” Skipper

[Mickeyrouse]

#1
Several months ago I rebuilt my Wil-Critt Skipper toilet with the parts available at the time. I was able to find the small two-flapper valve which controls intake flush water. The shaft and levers that mount on that appear sound.
Upon completion of the re-build, I re-installed it and the toilet worked okay. However, recently the bowl continues to fill after flushing, at a rate best described as a fast drip. It will eventually fill the bowl ( about 15 minutes). In the past, lifting the foot pedal past what the spring return will do was adequate to stop the flow. But no longer. It acts like a back-siphon problem, though this has not been a problem in the past for the 25 years we’ve had this boat and its toilet. I’m not convinced “siphon” would describe the situation since the through-hull fitting that supplies flush water is lower than the inlet on the bowl. Still, in that vein, would a siphon break remedy this? Or is this a result of the bronze lever inadequately pressing against the small two-flapper valve? Since the position of both the small lever and the foot lever are determined by 1) tapped threads to mount the small lever and 2) a similar screw position ( I don’t recall if it’s a flat or a thread hole) for the foot lever/pedal, meaning that it doesn’t seem likely that improper re-installation of that shaft-lever-pedal assembly is the obvious problem. I realize the two-flapper valve involved may in some way be the problem, but I would expect to see a water leak around the exposed flapper valve edges if that were the case.
Any suggestions are certainly welcome.

[Manateeman]

We have two skippers. We have two quarter turn ball valves on each...one for the supply, one for the discharge. If both are shut, you have a tight ship. I just don’t trust anti siphon loops.
The skipper had a number of parts that made it complicated and can be simplified by ball valves. Two quick valve turns and all the sea water is shut.
The US Navy had a step by step tutorial on the skipper because they used them on the Annapolis boats. Maybe someone can find and post it.
Happy trails to you.
Mark and the manatee crew.

[Mickeyrouse]

Manateeman, thanks for coming in. I suppose a ball valve will be the solution, though it has functioned these 25 years without needing it. There is a sea-cock on the intake, but it’s under the sink where my wife stores Lysol, Clorox, extra dog food, detergent, etc etc, and is inconvenient to move when you gotta go. Besides, it also controls the sink drain.
I’m seriously considering retiring this relic, sadly, because these things were built to last and I have yet to have it clogged. Parts are just about unobtainable other than a few select pieces. If it goes on the beach, I’m considering a Groco Model K.
I’ve seen the Navy manual on the rebuild. Seems like it was specific on just what kind of boat is was being re-built on, and the assumption it was while underway.

[Bermuda Forte]

Hey Mickey, don’t give up on the Skipper. I think mine’s older than yours and still works fine ... usually. Since the problem came after the rebuild, and parts being replaced, it must be one or the other. Good luck and I’ll take it for spares if it’s going out! Best, Quentin, s/v Aquila

[Phantom Jim]

A possible "permanent/temporary" solution to the raw water rise in the toilet bowl is to use fresh water flush rather than raw water flush. The raw water hull valve could be left in the closed position.

Fresh water flush creates a "less noxious" effluent in the holding tank with considerably less odors. We flush the toilet dry then add 32 oz. fresh water to the bowl and pump dry. This has worked well and is now our standard flush technique. We simply fill a 32 oz. bottle from any faucet and dump it into the toilet.

To avoid contamination of potable water, the fresh water for toilet flushing should not be connected directly to the boat's main fresh water tankage.

[peghall]

Mickey, Vince's reply raised a possibility in my mind: You rebuilt with parts still available at the time (just several months ago). You may or may not know that Thetford bought W-C solely because they were the US importer for the high end Italian electric macerating toilet Tecma and almost immediately discontinued everything else W-C made. However, they then introduced their own version of the Skipper--the Skipper II. It was such an over-priced poor imitation of the W-C Skipper that it didn't last long. So I wonder if the only parts you were still able to find are actually parts for Thetford's Skipper II.

Just a thought....

--Peggie

[Mickeyrouse]

Originally Posted by Bermuda Forte

Hey Mickey, don’t give up on the Skipper. I think mine’s older than yours and still works fine ... usually. Since the problem came after the rebuild, and parts being replaced, it must be one or the other. Good luck and I’ll take it for spares if it’s going out! Best, Quentin, s/v Aquila

Quentin, thanks for patrolling these nether regions- plumbing. I’m not ready to give up just yet, but my wife might be- you know, guests and such. I can’t determine if the spring that drives the lever has no more travel- it certainly hasn’t lost its strength, based on the force required to compress when installing the base plate. I can’t quite determine the part the small double flapper plays in the scheme- if not seating and sealing properly, is that the culprit? Is a back-siphon condition a possibility? Is the bronze lever not engaging properly, thus causing the dual flapper the leak flush water? Is the dual flapper distorted from sloppy installation? The problem seems to focus on the shaft and lever assembly, and how it interacts with the dual flapper. That flapper COULD be improperly installed- the diagram isn’t easy to follow.
As you know this thing is heavy, and working on it involves removal and transporting it home to work bench and my garage-shop. I’d like to avoid as many dead-ends as possible, and also minimize the tear-down and risk of parts lost or damaged in the process.

[Mickeyrouse]

Originally Posted by peghall

Mickey, Vince's reply raised a possibility in my mind: You rebuilt with parts still available at the time (just several months ago). You may or may not know that Thetford bought W-C solely because they were the US importer for the high end Italian electric macerating toilet Tecma and almost immediately discontinued everything else W-C made. However, they then introduced their own version of the Skipper--the Skipper II. It was such an over-priced poor imitation of the W-C Skipper that it didn't last long. So I wonder if the only parts you were still able to find are actually parts for Thetford's Skipper II.

Just a thought....

--Peggie

I knew about Thertford’s buy-and-kill move, and I’m pretty sure the new parts are not for the Skipper II. I referenced the parts to an old W-C diagram and compared new parts to old. They LOOKED identical, though that won’t reveal variations of 1/16” or less, if such amount of difference would even effect performance.

[Mickeyrouse]

Originally Posted by Phantom Jim

A possible "permanent/temporary" solution to the raw water rise in the toilet bowl is to use fresh water flush. We simply fill a 32 oz. bottle from any faucet and dump it into the toilet.

Phantom Jim, that’s pretty much what we’ve been doing, at least on this cruise. We’re using a 2-1/2 gal. laundry detergent jug. 1 pint seems to be enough.

[Phantom Jim]

Possibly one of the smaller composting toilets could be installed? They get good reviews, but are obviously not for everyone. The photo attached is a self designed "sawdust toilet" installed in a Baba 30.

The existing hoses and holding tank could be left in place and the composter installed. The Wil-Critt could be stored at home and reinstalled if one wished to have it back aboard.

The installation of the "sawdust toilet", the smallest of the composting toilets, is very low cost and creates no damage to the boat.