Questions about a vintage head

[MicHughV]

That W-C is a great head. It's the first head I ever had on my homebuilt boat, and it functioned flawlessly for as long as I owned it. Rebuild gaskets, etc, became hard to find eventually and I ended up replaced it with a more "modern" version of a head. Since that time, I've had several different heads on different boats, but none worked as efficiently as that W-C.

I seem to recall that there were some leather parts in the main pump that sealed the piston inside, and a few other odd flax seals, but I think rebuilding it is entirely possible.

The internet was not around at that time, so searching for rebuild kits was not available to me. Had that been the case, I would have kept on rebuilding it.

For sure, I would do some online searching for parts and manuals. It's worth fixing and keeping in my opinion. Besides all that, it is the perfect complement for a Westsail boat, as a plastic head would look completely out of place. The bronze will polish up nicely and you'll come to recognize that head as the "throne".

[peghall]

Sadly, Wilcox Crittenden no longer exists. Sometime in the '90s they became the US importer for Tecma, a high end Italian macerating electric toilet that literally revolutionized the US electric marine toilet industry. Thetford wanted Tecma toilets badly enough to buy W-C to take over US distribution. Because Tecma was the ONLY thing W-C had that they wanted, they promptly discontinued everything W-C made and began selling off all W-C inventory. They found that there was enough demand for W-C's SKipper toilet to make it themselves as the Skipper II, which turned out to be such a poor imitation of the original that it didn't last long on the market. Bottom line: no repair parts or rebuild kits for it or the real W-C Skipper have been available since they cleared out all the inventory for both versions. If you come across someone who still has Skipper parts or a rebuild kit for sale, make very sure it's not a Skipper II kit...they aren't interchangeable.


--Peggie

[Nanamuk]

[QUOTE=riksf;3750923]Hey folks, new old boat owner here, slowly working my way through the various systems and finding new things to fix every day, not surprisingly.

Anyhow, I've put off working on the plumbing as long as I could, but now it's time. The boat has a Wilcox Crittenden head which probably hasn't been used in over a decade. It appears to work perfectly when pumping the bowl out to the holding tank, but the water intake doesn't seem to work. It has a valve that I assume controls the raw water flow (see photos below), but I've tried pumping with it fully turned in both directions and no dice.

1. Am I interpreting this valve correctly, or is there some other trick?

2. If something's broken, any ideas what would cause the pump to work for emptying the bowl but not for drawing water in?

3. Is it possible this thing was actually designed to be used with a pressurized freshwater system? (the water intake was disconnected when I bought the boat and there isn't a separate thru-hull for it, though it might have shared the sink drain)

4. I kinda like the style of this thing, but am I in for a world of hurt if I don't just replace it with something more modern?

Any and all advice appreciated, thanks!



[/QUOTE

It is a WC Winner. We have been using one for 45 years and love it. Your problem is most likely under the "tap" that controls the intake water - take it off and clean / free it up. I found new leathers at an agricultural pump place, bought lots and keep them in Neets Foot oil to keep soft - last 10 years or more full time live aboard. Just behind the tap is a slot head plug with a hole in it. It has a rubber cap with a slit that lets air in as you pump dry and keeps water from spraying out when flushing. Haven't found replacements so have tried various alternatives. A ball valve works but if you forget to close it when you pump water sprays everywhere. I put in a vented loop anti syphone valve but it squealed on dry pump so my current solution is a clear tube lead to the side bulkhead about 2.5 ft higher than the pump. You put your finger over the end to draw water and leave it open to dry - simple and no leaks. PM me if you have any questions once you tear it down, you will be very happy with it once serviced!

[MicHughV]

Sadly, Wilcox Crittenden no longer exists.

Yep, that jives with what I remember.....probably late 80's, early 90's...could not find rebuilt parts for my W-C anymore...sad day...

Had I known then, what I know now, I would have made an attempt to rebuild it using what parts I could scrounge or make myself..

[skipperpete]

I had exactly this head in my first yacht, bought it very cheaply from the original Ballina Slipway (S White) and they had shelves full of spares, nobody really wanted those ancient bronze dunnies. It worked perfectly for 30 years. The only better head in my experience was one that Halversons fitted to their fleet of timber charter boats that were based at Bobbin head near Sydney, I think they actually designed and built the bronze and porcelain masterpiece themselves and it was virtually un blockable.
[ATTACH] Here’s a photo of the legendary “Halvo dunny”

[Jim Cate]

FWIW: Our previous boat had a W/C "Imperial" head... a bronze work of art IMO. It became difficult to source new leathers for the pump, so I made a piston from a bit of ~3/4 inch PVC plate and a fat o-ring for a seal. Worked better than the original (less friction, better sealing) and was still using the original o-ring when we sold the boat a decade later. Also replaced a small bronze connecting rod from the foot pedal valve with a bit of stainless rod... don't remember the exact details for that one.

Point is that there are no hi-tech bits in the head, and all of t he usual parts can be either found in other head designs or McGyvered yourself.

Jim

[peghall]

That's great information, Nanamuk. I rarely see anyone who has a Winner who hasn't taken it apart in the process of totally restoring it, so I have little info beyond exploded drawings and parts list for it. So with your permission I'd like to add it to my files 'cuz it's likely to be valuable to the next one who comes my way.


riksf: If you'll send me a PM that includes your email address (no way to attach anything to a PM), I'll send you the exploded drawing for your toilet.



MicHughV: It was mid-late 90s when Thetford killed off W-C...which W-C toilet do you have?

Jim Cate: I don't have much more on the Imperial than I have on the Winner, so any contributions you'd care to make to my files will also be appreciated.


--Peggie

[Jim Cate]

Jim Cate: I don't have much more on the Imperial than I have on the Winner, so any contributions you'd care to make to my files will also be appreciated.

Hi Peggie,

Much as I'd like to add to your files, that was nearly thirty years ago. I did make a sketch of dimensions for the piston and notes about o-ring size, but those files, being paper, have long since disappeared into oblivion.

But such things are simple to engineer, even for a casual user. A careful measuring of the bore of the pump cylinder and the diameter of the piston rod gives the design parameters needed. A look at t he Parker o-ring manual gives the groove dimensions and o-ring nomenclature... all you need then is access to a lathe. That can be a problem for a yottie away from home, but any machine shop can quickly make the part up from a sketch if you can't do it yourself.

As an aside... when we sold that boat, the new owner took the Imperial out and put it in the marina dumpster (unbeknownst to me) and installed a Jabsco. He did a lot of other stupid things too!

Sorry I can't help further.

Jim

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

FWIW: Our previous boat had a W/C "Imperial" head... a bronze work of art IMO.

There were two models of that head.
The "#1591 Imperial Junior model 51", and the "#1593 Imperial model 51".
They are virtually the same, the 1591 uses a manual inlet valve, whereas the 1593 has a linkage with foot pedal added for control of flush water.
Another difference was the horizontal handle on the 1591 and a vertical handle on the 1593, but the handles interchange.
But the main castings are the same, either one can be set-up to mirror the other.
I've got one in my stash, perhaps someday I'll take it apart and see what I can do with it, but the Groco K is first in line for attention.

[riksf]

We have a Winner! Here's the pump after disassembling and knocking off about a half inch of mineral buildup:

Originally Posted by Nanamuk

It is a WC Winner. We have been using one for 45 years and love it. Your problem is most likely under the "tap" that controls the intake water - take it off and clean / free it up.

Bingo. It appears to be some sort of ball check valve mechanism. The ball was stuck in place with minerals, so even when I opened the valve on the outside it wasn't letting water through.

Originally Posted by Nanamuk

I found new leathers at an agricultural pump place, bought lots and keep them in Neets Foot oil to keep soft - last 10 years or more full time live aboard.

Very interesting - I did a little googling and found something that looks exactly like the leathers on my pump with the right dimensions. The ones I have now aren't quite falling apart but they could stand to be replaced. I've ordered a couple from Lehmans and will keep my fingers crossed that they fit.

[MicHughV]

Peggy,

I don't have that W-C toilet anymore. It was on the first boat I owned.
Interestingly enough, I built my first boat, 1979-1981 and someone had mentioned to me an old wood boat partially sunk some miles away. I was after the lead keel it had, and was not in the market for a toilet at that time.

Nonetheless, when I arrived at the site, the boat was indeed laying in the marshes on it's side. It sported a nice lead shoe, which was the prize I was after.
Together, with some friends, a lot of block and tackles, grunts and groans, etc, we managed to get this hulk onto dry land, which gave me an opportunity to look inside.

I noticed that W-C head almost right away, and immediately thought...this I gotta have, so I removed it. I didn't know the first thing about it, but something about it, called my name.
Bear in mind, during my boatbuilding days, I was poor as a church mouse, and the W-C was an "extra" find. I knew I needed a toilet, but until then, had not given it much thought.
It was in deplorable condition at the time. Nonetheless, after removing it, I took it home with me and after calling around discovered someone in Maine still selling rebuild parts for it, so I ordered a kit.

That W-C was a work of art, and after being cleaned, and rebuilt, it was a veritable throne fit for a king. I was told the boat it came off was an English boat, but know little more about it. My guess it was around 30' long. The boat had a wood mast and cloth sails. I would guess that boat to have been 30-40 years old by the time it fell into my hands.

That W-C was a thing of beauty. I had my first boat for around 10 years, and in that time, it performed flawlessly and effortlessly. Right before I sold the boat, it started to leak somewhere and I thought to remove it as it might be distraction to the next buyer.

I don't remember the model name of the W-C. It looked very similar to the photo's in this thread. The base, plus all the valves, pumps, etc, were all bronze. The seat and cover were both teak. The seat and cover hinges were also bronze. The handle had a teak grip on the end.

That's about all I can tell you about it. It was a marvel of machinery. I wish I still had it.

[peghall]

Looking at your photo you posted earlier and you're saying that it came off a British boat, I question whether it was a W-C toilet... it may have been a British Blake. Blake toilets If it was, you scored an even better find than you know...Blake toilets--still in production, btw, are considered the best in the world, as borne out by their prices.



--Peggie

[MicHughV]

Nope, mine was definitely a W-C. 100% definitely. It may have been installed here in the US, but that would be a guess on my part.
I probably have photo's of it, let me dig around my archives.

[AKA-None]

Originally Posted by peghall

Looking at your photo you posted earlier and you're saying that it came off a British boat, I question whether it was a W-C toilet... it may have been a British Blake. Blake toilets If it was, you scored an even better find than you know...Blake toilets--still in production, btw, are considered the best in the world, as borne out by their prices.



--Peggie

You really didn’t warn me sufficiently

Wow just wow

That’s a throne

[HopCar]

Originally Posted by peghall

It doesn't sound like he's figured out yet that stepping on the pedal at the bottom of the pump brings in water...at least he hasn't mentioned doing that, he's trying to use the pump to bring in water. Unless the toilet is above waterline--which doesn't seem likely on his boat--you don't "pump" the pedal, you just step on it long enough to bring in the amount of water you want. Hopefully the pedal isn't missing...I can't see enough of the toilet to see! But I can see enough of the hoses to know that once you figure out how it works, they all need to be replaced.



If the toilet hasn't been used in years, it definitely needs lubrication. If it's old enough for the gaskets, o-rings etc to be leather, flush about a tablespoon of veggie oil down it only far enough to remain in the pump when it can stay there overnight. 'Cuz leather absorbs oil, you'll only have to do this once or twice a year. (Using veggie oil to lube toilets that have rubber etc innards is a holdover from the days when toilets had leather innards. But 'cuz rubber doesn't absorb oil, it just washes out in a few flushes).


I can't tell which model W-C toilet he has...most likely a Skipper. Once I know for sure I can email the exploded drawing and parts list for it to you.



--Peggie

Peggy it isn’t a Skipper. The pump on a Skipper is under the bowl not beside it. I’m pretty sure it is a Sands/Wilcox Winner.

There is no foot pedal, the valve on top serves that function. Turn it one way and water can come in. Turn it the other and you can pump the bowl dry.

The pump handle is missing in the photos.

That’s a really old toilet. I started selling marine toilets about fifty years ago and I’m not sure I’ve ever seen one. I’m looking at a picture of it in a 1955 Wilcox catalog. No parts will be available now.